Well, granted the show does have it flaws, but I don't know many shows that don't. As for sucking, it's a matter of opinion, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you on that one. Honesty, I think Rob Thomas is maintaining the great quality that's usually there, but the perspective of the show has changed, and I don't see how it can't.

Season one was set up to introduce the characters to us, and let us explore them through development and progressive storytelling. It was very well done, but it was also necessary to do so as a new show. The whole season was mainly driven towards solving Lilly's murder.

Season 2, however, can't really repeat that same formula. Thomas and the writers did a very thorough job in season 1 that we felt like we know the characters so well in the end that I don't think there's really anything else more that would contribute to it. It's not a matter of ignoring character history, but rather trying to progress beyond that with character development and growth. In a brilliant way, I think the writers are trying to address that conflict in season 2's themes: dealing with consequences and resistance to changes. Honestly, I think Rob purposely and centrally set up Veronica's actions to be more hesitant and seemingly less sympathetic to Logan for along those reasons. Her (sometimes blindingly) crave for normality is the reason for most of questioned behavior and will likely be her downfall in this season. I think there's no doubt that she'll come to that realization by half of the season, but I think in the meantime, the continually growing pile of shit needs to happen in order for her to get there. In my opinion, the heavy plot-driven is used just as much of a character-developing platform as it is for thrills and suspense.

Sorry, I still disagree. Example, Logan and Veronica broke up because of some new manufactured device, instead of using the issues that were already there between them. Duncan went psycho on his car, completely ignored. Duncan on his meds, ignored. The fact that Logan's mother committed suicide, his father slept with and killed his gf, tried to kill his new gf, who turned him into the cops for murder who believed that he raped her and there's been practically no feel that this young kid has been through this much.

Veronica DID believe that she was raped, but there's been no issue that she willingly chose to sleep with the guy who slept with her and just let her believe she was raped because he buried his head in the sand and didn't want to believe and upon finding out that she believed she'd been raped responded "it sucks not to remember."

Logan and Veronica have spent most of the season acting as if nothing in the last half of season 1 ever happened. There has been practically no fall-out from all of the events that happened last season for anyone except in perfunctory mode.

I don't like this Veronica, who still has that in your face, nasty, snarky attitude that worked when she was the underdog but just comes across as making her look like a bitch with her privileged status now. I don't like Logan now. He's being written as a selfish, uncaring asshole. The only reason I don't hate him is because of Jason's ability to portray layers of vulnerability beneath that asshole exterior. But nothign is being written to give him layers, it's ALL Jason.

The ensemble is not flowing or being used well. The lack of the high school setting for the most part is frustrating. I liked those cases. Kendall is a complete waste of space. Wallace and Jackie have no chemistry and there's been no foundation so no one cares about them. Jackie has been horribly conceived and hasn't merged in well at all. I like Tessa THompson, but she's not fitting in with the cast. Krysten Ritter (Gia) is just terrible.

You call is character progression, it is playing to me like he's taking the same characters with a few more added ones and telling a different story with them and pretty much making the existing characters act different. This Veronica is NOT the Veronica from last season. Neither is Logan. Neither is Duncan. Wallace and Keith are still working. But that's it.

I just don't like this show anymore and it sucks (the show and that I'm not enjoying it). And yes, from a LoVe fan perspective, it's as if he has taken the absolute worst way of keeping Logan and Veronica apart and I'm not even convinced that there will ever be a payoff, even a lame one because I don't even think that Logan and Veronica are going to get back together. Of course I can't even see how realistically it would happen now.

"Sorry, I still disagree."

As do I. I think as this debate is matter of differences of opinion and interpretation, I won't discuss further. On that note though, you make excellent points about the faults of season 2. Admitingly, some of your frustrations of the show is shared from time to time. However, I trust Rob and company to carry through in the end. The writers, cast, and production are too extremely talented to let the season go to waste.

All the same though, thankyou for your replying and sharing your perspective.

However, I trust Rob and company to carry through in the end.

I don't, but I really hope that you and others who feel this way are right. I really do.

The writers, cast, and production are too extremely talented to let the season go to waste.

I agree 100% with this.

Obviously, we do disagree, but thanks for sharing your opinion. I love respectful discussion/debate. :)

:grins: Let it all out. It was about time someone said it. The show is crap. How far the great have fallen.

It WAS great last year. And this year? Gah! Even the good episodes are flawed by the overall stupid-ass arc of the "triangle" that isn't.

Rob Thomas? Be so glad that you'll never meet me face to face, cuz boy would I give you a piece of my mind. I mean, damn, the man did this to his OWN show!!