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15 May 2012 @ 05:40 pm
Smash finale  
Season finale of Smash OMG! That was so good. I loved it, loved it, loved it, loved it. Best episode since the Pilot. Now if they could maintain that awesome balance throughout the whole season, it would be awesome. Sure there were some great episodes in-between, but this one really just seemed to slay on all levels. I LOVED IT!

And that final number, dude, I was clapping!
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Vickie: Steel Magnolias-Ousier Bad Moodsarcasticcheese on May 15th, 2012 10:46 pm (UTC)
I just find it really hard to like Ivy. If I'm supposed to feel sorry for her, I don't.

I thought the episode was quite good, and definitely one of the best of the season.

And I cheered when Eileen laid the smack down on Ellis.
Arabian: Alaric01arabian on May 15th, 2012 10:50 pm (UTC)
I like Karen better than Ivy, and I don't think she's quite who we're supposed to be rooting for, so .... Yeah, Eileen, you tell him!! (And I consider to inexplicably adore Julia when I never really liked Debra Messing before, but in this, I just ADORE her!)
Maeve: DW: Rose Tylermarble_rose on May 16th, 2012 12:08 am (UTC)
IKR? This was one of the few finales so far this season that left me completely satisfied. I'm SO happy Karen got the limelight this go around. She was flawless in that last number. While I do like Ivy - there are definitely times that I feel for her and find her sympathetic - she was downright cruel to Karen in this. Sometimes the good girl wins, is all I'm sayin'.

Plus, even though Derek is a tool, I'm totally shipping him with Karen. LOVE IT.
Arabian: Rose_Thinkingarabian on May 16th, 2012 11:18 am (UTC)
I pretty much agree with every word you wrote in this. Seriously, every word.

BTW: I'm giving OUAT another shot. I'll start watching this weekend. :)
hiddeneloisehiddeneloise on May 16th, 2012 12:48 am (UTC)
I liked it a lot, too.

I still think Ivy is the better singer. And dancer. Karen has a stronger voice, but Ivy knows what to do with it. I get why Derek went with Karen -- why he sees her as "little girl" Marilyn. She's got that naive little thing ready to be manipulated into whatever the big man director wants. That's the whole musical, that's what Marilyn was seen as, and that's what she fought against all her life. My problem is, Karen isn't fighting. And Derek is still a sleaze. They will probably hook up next year, and I couldn't care less. This isn't going to be a grand ship. He is a misogynistic creep who manipulates women and discards them, and she is just perfectly placed for more heartbreak. If she is lucky, she is Ivy in 10 years: Cynical and bitter, but still hopeful with that little bit of determination left to try and try and try again. If she isn't lucky (or, perhaps it's the other way around?), she picks herself up, leaves broadway, and goes back to Iowa to do something else with her life. Perhaps that's the story. (It would be the more honest one, but no, I don't think it's the one they are telling).

I like Katherine McPhee. I do. But boy does she lose to Megan Hilty. On ALL counts. In acting, in singing, in dancing. MH acts her right off the screen, and it's only McPhee's tallness and beauty that don't let her fade away entirely. It's a problem. It's a problem the show will have to justify somehow. Or fix. By giving Marilyn to Ivy in the end.

But for what this episode was, I liked it. A lot. I liked Julia, I freaking loved that Ellis the creep got fired (he should be arrested, for goodness sake! Slipping peanuts to a severely allergic person? That's, at the very least, a harmful intent.). I liked that Karen has finally kicked Dev to the curb. That was seen coming miles away, even before he slept with Ivy (a plot twist that had me rolling my eyes so far up my head, you have no idea. Surely, there were enough reasons to break those two up as it is.).

I am not a fan of the final number, but I get it. It's the power ending they needed, and it's the kind of thing that would make the audience get up and cheer. It won't make any musical halls of fame, but it'll do. And I still wish it was Ivy that sang it. She would have done it some justice.

Anyway, gripes aside, I can see where they will go with this next season, and that's a good sign.
Arabian: TVarabian on May 16th, 2012 11:38 am (UTC)
Oh, Ivy's definitely a better singer/dancer (being on Broadway and successfully will do that for ya), but I just can't help it, I *like* Karen better. And I didn't even like McPhee on American Idol at all, but I feel for her Karen, and I want her to win, whereas I don't feel that connection with Ivy. I just like Karen more. And I don't want Ivy to get Marilyn in the end, I want Karen to get it. Ivy has shown that when push comes to shove, she can't quite handle it yet either. So, we've seen that they both have issues they need to deal with. I do think it's subjective, because, again, yeah, I want Karen as Marilyn, not Ivy. But I guess they want that, Team!Karen, Team!Ivy, you know.

I know Derek's a sleaze, but I think they're going for the love of a good woman, yada, yada, yada, and I'm okay with that because I just like the pretty people and the chemistry, LOL!

I thought that McPhee had some pitch/diction problems at certain points in the song, but she completely hit it out of the ballpark at the triumphant end that was necessary. I think this is going to be one upon which we don't agree, my dear! :)
hiddeneloisehiddeneloise on May 16th, 2012 06:58 pm (UTC)
Actually, being on Broadway has nothing to do with it. Megan Hilty runs circles around Katherine McPhee in terms of talent and stage presence. And that is no amount of experience can give anyone.

I know the show wants me to feel for Karen, and in some instances I do, but overall, I am blah, because she is blah. She can't make me. :) And MH, for all of Ivy's numerous flaws, has made me care.

Ugh, that "love of a good woman." I can't tell you how much I despise that myth, and if that's what they are going for, I am out. I'd rather he break Karen's heart and give some honest authenticity to this thing, than perpetuate a harmful, high-school-level fairy-tale that never actually works in real life. If a guy is a sleaze, he is a sleaze. The love a good woman is not a patch he can apply to cure his sleazoidness.

And chemistry thing? Devenport is a charismatic actor, and the one he has the least chemistry with is Karen/McPhee. It's probably because she isn't charismatic herself. She is very pretty. But wooden, and just ... blah.

The final song, yeah, she did well. But man, Ivy would have done so much better. Sigh.

I guess I have bigger issues with this show and its themes and direction than I though. lol. It makes me angry as a woman. :) If I didn't love theater so much, I'd tune out a long time ago. Megan Hilty/Ivy and Angelica Huston are the main things that keep me tuning in.
Arabian: Little Boy Bluearabian on May 17th, 2012 11:48 am (UTC)
Actually, being on Broadway has nothing to do with it. Megan Hilty runs circles around Katherine McPhee in terms of talent and stage presence. And that is no amount of experience can give anyone.

But I don't see it that way. I think that McPhee has more stage presence than Hilty and because of Hilty's Broadway experience,s he has more ease in the broadway aspects of performing that McPhee does. I think Hilty is a better actress, but not running circles around her, and I like McPhee's vocals better. So it is subjective. I really prefer the one over the other.

I know the show wants me to feel for Karen, and in some instances I do, but overall, I am blah, because she is blah. She can't make me. :) And MH, for all of Ivy's numerous flaws, has made me care.

While I do care for Ivy, I care MORE for Karen. She is who I am rooting for, she's the one I want to get Marilyn, she's who I want to see succeed. Again, subjective.

Ugh, that "love of a good woman." I can't tell you how much I despise that myth, and if that's what they are going for, I am out.

I don't care enough about the show to worry about it, I just think they're pretty and have really great chemistry.

And chemistry thing? Devenport is a charismatic actor, and the one he has the least chemistry with is Karen/McPhee. It's probably because she isn't charismatic herself. She is very pretty. But wooden, and just ... blah.

From the Pilot, I've liked their chemistry is best. You think it's the weakest, again, subjective, LOL! This show definitely brings out the differing opinions. And, I think she's charismatic, and I don't find her wooden at all.

The final song, yeah, she did well. But man, Ivy would have done so much better. Sigh.

I think Ivy's would have been great, but I think that Karen's was. The main thing here seems to be that you're all for Ivy and actively not so for Karen. I'm all for Karen, but I like Ivy too.

Debra Messing/Julia, Angelica Huston, Karen/Derek and the songs are what I love most.

Edited at 2012-05-17 11:48 am (UTC)
hiddeneloisehiddeneloise on May 17th, 2012 06:05 pm (UTC)
Actually, no. I am not all for Ivy and actively not for Karen. The problem is not the characters, it's the actresses. I find MH to be so, so much better, stronger, more nuanced, better at everything, and just ... better. It's not that McPhee is terrible. She is adequate. But, to quote Derek, Broadway is lousy with talent. I cannot believe, every time I watch Karen perform, that they ccouldn't find anyone better. And the reasons they give for it not being Ivy just don't ring true for me.

Sure a lot of it is subjective. But when they tell me the Karen is the best choice, they can't make me buy it. They can't make a lot of people buy it. And it should be obvious. That's their entire hook and premise. That Karen channels Marily better than anyone. And she is just not. There's something to be said for that naivete being a Marilyn trait. She sure was a mix of crushing insecurities and sex appeal. If the show wants to reduce her to that (and they do). But the sad thing is, Karen lacks the sex appeal. It's just not believable, and the harder she tries, the more grotesque it comes out. She did had a moment there in the pilot, in Derek's apartment. But she seems to have been determined to overplay it since.

And they don't do McPhee any favors by constantly comparing her to Hilty in terms of performances. That danc-ey number that she did on stage during rehearsals? They ran flashback with Ivy in it, and it only underscored just how much better, livelier, at ease, and just effing brilliant Hilty was in it. By comparison, McPhee's felt flat and forced.

Like I said, she isn't terrible. I do like Karen the character more or less. But I can take her or leave her, and a lot of the choices the show makes I would rather leave, as well. I absolutely hate what they did with Julia. I can't stand Michael (great singer, awful character). And I can go on.

I don't care about the show enough, either. I do care about MH. If she is ever in anything else, I will watch gladly. She is the reason for me. The fact that I don't care about the show, actually, is sad. Because this should be right up my alley. But, alas, bad writing and too much mediocrity just kind of kill it for me. More's the pity.
Arabian: Alaric01arabian on May 17th, 2012 06:27 pm (UTC)
We'll just agree to disagree because I think both actresses have strengths and weaknesses, and I personally prefer McPhee over Hilty.

I do agree that it's a shame that everything overall isn't better because this show did have the potential to be great.
irlandesakirlandesak on May 16th, 2012 05:18 am (UTC)
What balance?

I pretty much loathed it. But about half way this show became an exercise in masochism so that didn't really come as a surprise. There's only so much slut shaming, faulty logic and passivity passing as virtue I can take.

And I was disappointed in the final song. I've enjoyed every other song this team has wrote for the musical so I exected to like the final song more than I did.
Arabian: TVarabian on May 16th, 2012 11:22 am (UTC)
I mean the balance between personal and show, sometimes they've been unbalanced in episodes.

I don't see where you get slut shaming at all from this show. The only anger, insults, etc. regarding anyone having sex was Derek sleeping with Rebekah, and Ivy sleeping with Dev (and both were based purely on the fact that they were cheating). I'm actually surprised at the lack of slut shaming for Ivy when she was sleeping with Derek. Faulty logic, I'm used to with TV in general, so I don't mind as long as I like the characters and can suspend disbelief without it taking me out so thoroughly. I don't think this is a great show, but when it's good, I enjoy the heck out of it, and I've found most episodes good enough. Plus, I like the musical numbers. And I really did love the final number, so it's just a case of different strokes. :)
irlandesakirlandesak on May 17th, 2012 06:18 am (UTC)
I'm actually surprised at the lack of slut shaming for Ivy when she was sleeping with Derek.

You must have missed it because it was definitely there. Catty comments...etc.

Faulty logic, I'm used to with TV in general, so I don't mind as long as I like the characters and can suspend disbelief without it taking me out so thoroughly.

Yeah, I think what I meant to say is that the show couldn't even follow it's own logic.Julia and Michael's affair is a perfect example of that. One week he's stalking her. The next week he's totally cool that they're over. The next time we see him? Totally trying to get in her pants again. Take Derek, as a character, he's a mess. And I don't mean that in a 'complex' way but just that I have no idea how Jack manages to make that character seem real. He makes no sense from week to week. As much as I love JD, it became harder and harder to ignore as the season wore on.

And I have a rule, if I'm not an expert in a field yet feel like I know more than 'professionals' in a show, then I'm taken out of it.

I see what you meant by balance. When I say balance, I'm thinking back to the pilot and the balance between the two actresses. It was pretty heavy handed obvious that Karen would get the part even if the "Introducing Katharine McPhee" ads didn't tell us this before the show even aired. But Ivy was featured as well. She was also given her moments. They supposedly were both talented people with different things to offer. Karen was naive but beautiful. Ivy was a hard worker, with experience, who was studying everything about Marilyn. And that continued for a while but for the past few episodes, it has felt like a good old fashioned soap throw a character under the bus to prop another character instead of doing something like writing initiative into that other character. And that was pretty mujch the finale. Nothing positive or good happened to Ivy in that ep. She wasn't really given a moment to shine (why not give Baby Grand back to the shadow?) Or given a chance to sing.

For someone who loves Karen, I guess it was a satisfying episode. But if one is meh on Karen (which I am) and happened to love the other actress who was presented, I'm resentful that all I was left with was a pile of suck for her character.
Arabianarabian on May 17th, 2012 11:48 am (UTC)
You must have missed it because it was definitely there. Catty comments...etc.

I expected a BIG deal to be made about the fact that the star was sleeping with the director, that it was just a few catty comments surprised me. And it wasn't about the fact that she was sleeping with someone, it was WHO she was sleeping with ... and beyond those catty comments, the biggest response seemed to be 'aww, Ivy' because Derek is such a dog.

Julia and Michael's affair is a perfect example of that. One week he's stalking her. The next week he's totally cool that they're over. The next time we see him? Totally trying to get in her pants again.

See, that made perfect sense because Julia was sending him mixed signals so he was responding to those signals. And his varying responses then became based on him believing that they were over. He was fine with them the last time in NY because he still had his wife/kid, and chose to believe Julia was done. However, when he lost his kid/wife, he decided that Julia was in the same boat. Michael is basically a narcissistic pig who took advantage of the fact that Julia had a sexual attraction to him and pushed all of her buttons as much as he could. That all made perfect sense to me.

Take Derek, as a character, he's a mess. And I don't mean that in a 'complex' way but just that I have no idea how Jack manages to make that character seem real. He makes no sense from week to week. As much as I love JD, it became harder and harder to ignore as the season wore on.

He's a hard taskmaster, an artist who puts his art above all else, and he's also a narcissicist, but every now and then, real emotional seeps out because he's not a bad guy. He's just a very selfish, tunnel-vision guy. Again, works for me.

And I have a rule, if I'm not an expert in a field yet feel like I know more than 'professionals' in a show, then I'm taken out of it.

I'm just so used to that with EVERY profession on TV -- NONE of them are realistic -- that to ding this show for it, I just can't.

I see what you meant by balance. When I say balance [...] Nothing positive or good happened to Ivy in that ep. She wasn't really given a moment to shine (why not give Baby Grand back to the shadow?) Or given a chance to sing.

I think this is setting up her story in season 02 though. She needs to find herself because she's terribly unhappy, and this episode wasn't about her triumph, but about her low point. On the other hand, as a Karen fan, I've been frustrated at how she's always in the background, everyone telling her she's not good enough, she's not it, she's not worthy, etc, and her just taking it because she doesn't have the "experience." So, yeah, as a Karen fan, it was great seeing her finally rise to the occasion.

For someone who loves Karen, I guess it was a satisfying episode. But if one is meh on Karen (which I am) and happened to love the other actress who was presented, I'm resentful that all I was left with was a pile of suck for her character.

I can see that, even if I didn't see it as a pile of suck for Ivy. Had this been the series finale, I'd agree -- but I look at it this way with one more season, Ivy will go down a bit, but then she's gonna come back up, and Karen is going to get slapped in the face with reality, so they'll both get their moments come next season and that was the set-up in the finale. Does it mean that, yeah, Karen is probably going to come out on top in the end, yeah, but I think (hope) that Ivy is going to find HER happiness too, maybe just not as Marilyn.
S.artic_fox on May 16th, 2012 02:02 pm (UTC)
I find that Smash is my guilty pleasure show. Sometimes it is a hot mess, but I do enjoy watching it for the most part. I know it is unpopular, but I do like Karen. I hear a lot of people say they find her "boring", etc. I agree that she is rather... straight forward and uncomplex, but that doesn't mean I dislike her. I fall on her side of the Ivy/Karen divide. I ship Karen/Derek madly, mostly because I just love Jack Davenport's facial expressions when he deals with Karen.
Arabian: What's not to Love? (Logan)arabian on May 16th, 2012 02:21 pm (UTC)
Pretty much every word here? I agree with. That's my thoughts on the show, the characters, the ship exactly. :)
S.: hp; hermioneartic_fox on May 16th, 2012 02:25 pm (UTC)
I love Jack Davenport and have for many years so even when Derek is a tool, I still love him.

I have to admit, the original songs in Smash are a million times better than anything that is on Glee. Which I need to give up as a show, but can't.
Arabian: Betty01 - Yesarabian on May 16th, 2012 03:15 pm (UTC)
As long as Dianna Agron is on Glee, I'm there. I love the Bombshell numbers LOTS!

Yeah, Jack Davenport. *sigh*