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01 April 2012 @ 10:19 pm
Oh, I dunno ...  
I'm back to being pessimistic about The Vampire Diaries.

Apparently previous spoilers are wrong, and not only do S/E dance (which, yeah I did already know) in 3.20, it's apparently not a big D/E episode, but rather a BIG S/E episode. And I just -- I can't wrap my brain around Elena being with this guy after what he did on the bridge. I know, I know, what Damon did to Jeremy -- but that wasn't personal, that wasn't after she'd fallen in love with Damon, that wasn't after they'd been together. It was PERSONAL what Stefan did. And she and Stefan are going to dance, and have sweet, wonderful moments and get all close and intimate. Sure whatever happens with D/E in 3.19 is supposed to count, but when have Damon/Elena EVER gotten balance on this show? Uhm, never. So I'm not holding my breath here.

And now I'm back to thinking that Elena's going to either choose Stefan or choose neither one of them at the end of the season, kicking Damon (and the D/E shippers in the gut YET AGAIN!). I don't know how much more I can take of this ripping apart my shipper heart and I ADORE this show. There are so many D/E fans out there who don't even like the show anymore. No wonder the ratings are tanking. I'm sorry, but they were hitting the mid-to-higher two million viewers in the second half of season 02. Then the finale promised Damon/Elena. The first half of season two started to rise from those mid-to-higher two million to between three and mid-three million again. And other than 3.10 (where Damon/Elena kissed), there's been nothing but crumbs with them this second half and the ratings are falling back into the mid-to-higher two millions, with the last episode actually dipping below 2.5 (a 2.44). What is it going to take to wake them up to the fact that lack of Damon/Elena is HURTING the ratings.

There is no way you're not going to tell me there isn't some sort of connection here. Especially when Damon/Elena sweep every couple poll over Stefan/Elena, not to mention all of the buzz, talk, everywhere about them. The fandom is NOT evenly split, not by a long shot and because of that I can't honestly even understand the show being so determined to give both couples a fair shake more or less this season. And even if I could for that reason, it still wouldn't mesh because the first two seasons were NON-STOP STEFAN/ELENA! We're at the end of season 03 and Damon/Elena have YET to have even remotely as much good stuff as S/E.

And I'm whining, but I can't help it. IT'S NOT FAIR!

And damnit! One more rant. I'm fucking sick and tired of the lack of Damon-love on the show. Everyone treats him like crap. And he doesn't deserve it. Not now. Not when everyone else gets sunshine blown up their ass and forgiveness with a bouquet for any bad thing they do or it's flat-out ignored (paging Stefan!). But Damon?! He's still gets treated like crap for stuff he did in the first season and first episode of season 02, never mind EVERY SINGLE SOLITARY THING he's done good since then. What? Because he's snarky? Why shouldn't he be? Everyone treats him like crap.

GAH!
 
 
 
vanimy: Elena/Carolinevanimy on April 2nd, 2012 09:04 pm (UTC)
PART 1 (yeah, yeah, I know!:p)

:o If you of all people stop being optimistic about Delena, we're all screwed! ;)

You already know I (unfortunately) agree with you a lot on this!

Every single time I try to relax and enjoy the ride something happens and I feel like we (Delena) shippers get screwed up. I also feel like they're trying too hard to please both sides, D/E and S/E. I find myself (almost!!) regretting the days when Stefan and Elena were together and it was out in the open at least and Damon and Elena had their little moments (the key word here is 'almost'! :P). because right now, no side is happy. Damon/Elena haven't moved forward since the kiss (8 episodes ago??!), Stefan/Elena fans have had no romantic scenes either.

I'm one of those who follow a show rabidly because of ships but shipping's only the difference between me following a show with interest and being obsessed with it. ;) I'm perfectly capable of following and loving a show even without my ship getting any moments. I kept following 'Friends' till the end even as they kept screwing over Ross and Rachel repeatedly. I kept following BtVS till the bitter end even though my ship was gone (Buffy/Angel ; and the storylines started to suck but that's another story...).

Heck season 2 of TVD still remains my favorite for now even with that season totally lacking in Damon/Elena interaction.

I know we disagree on this, but I think the dip in ratings isn't just about Delena (it's definitely one of the reasons but not the only one), I think this season lacks a sense of... urgency. First season was all about establishing the bases but also had a sense of urgency with the Stefan on human blood storyline, the kill-vampires-device. Season 2 increased all this, I felt, because Elena's life was at stake during all the second part of the season. Season 3? Mmh. The first part of the season had it, mostly because it was all about saving Stefan and Ripper!Stefan and how far he would go. The second part? Nothing at all. Stefan's more or less back to normal, Elena's life isn't at risk anymore, the Originals storyline is running in circles and never had much of an impact on the Scooby gang. I even had to stop once the other day and remember why they were all so intent on killing Klaus and all the originals in the first place.

I think this season doesn't feel cohesive generally speaking. The whole Sage story for example felt like such a waste. The only purpose it served was to show the consequences of killing an original but that could've been done easily with a character like Troy. She was supposed to mean something to Damon, but she didn't, not really, to the point we're not even shown his reaction to her death (remember Lexi's death after just one episode?).

Basically I feel like the general idea is still great TVD but the execution is severely flawed. Ric's ring plotline -even though I really loved the twist- was too subtly foreshadowed to make sense for the casual viewer. Elena and Damon pulling away from each other after the kiss makes a lot of sense from a narrative POV but the execution makes Elena look like she doesn't give a damn about Damon. They're supposed to be estranged to show what they're both missing (well, I hope so) but no scene shows that. It would've taken one little scene where Elena could've taken her phone, stared at Damon's name then decided against calling him, whatever, anything. Even season 1 with Elena fighting against her attraction to Damon like mad had moments when Elena looked a little bit too flustered even while snarking at Damon. None of that now, no little sign.
Arabian: Damon&Alaric02arabian on April 3rd, 2012 01:53 am (UTC)
Part 1 of (erm) 3 (maybe?) --

PART 1 (yeah, yeah, I know!:p)

Dude! You saw my response to your posts in the episode thread!

:o If you of all people stop being optimistic about Delena, we're all screwed! ;)

If it helps, I feel mostly better now. It's just that as much as I was able to go with the flow about the last episode, I was disappointed in the reaction to Damon's kidnapping overall, and from Elena especially. I was able to rationalize most of it away, but not seeing anything AT ALL from Elena beyond that one scene where she asked about rescuing him was very, very disheartening. I get the why of the kidnapping, but it felt like a HUGE wasted opportunity to show the others realizing that Damon does mean at least a LITTLE something to them, and Elena getting a kick in the pants about her feelings for him, and Stefan seeing that reaction from her which led to that scene at the end.

You already know I (unfortunately) agree with you a lot on this!

I know, but I DO feel better now!

Every single time I try to relax and enjoy the ride something happens and I feel like we (Delena) shippers get screwed up.

But I don't think we will. We get 3.19 which is supposed to matter plenty lots, and yeah there's stuff with S/E in 3.20, but she also said there is stuff with D/E in a few weeks meaning we'll get stuff in 3.21 and probably 3.22 as well.

I also feel like they're trying too hard to please both sides, D/E and S/E.

I actually think they're trying to please S/E and this is my theory why, they know the long game and they know that it's Damon/Elena -- sooner rather than later -- and that therefore they don't have to appease that fanbase because to them the writing is on the wall. What is happening on the show should suffice. The problem is that they don't seem to realize that just because THEY know what's happening, people have been burned too often to see that logical, narrative flow.

I find myself (almost!!) regretting the days when Stefan and Elena were together and it was out in the open at least and Damon and Elena had their little moments (the key word here is 'almost'! :P).

I think that the opposite is going to happen next season. I do think Damon/Elena will be together, and Stefan will be on the outside and there were still be moments with Elena because she can't help it, she does love him.

no side is happy.

Honestly, prior to 3.18, I was pretty happy with D/E's progression.

Damon/Elena haven't moved forward since the kiss (8 episodes ago??!)

See, I do think there has been progression. Elena's reaction to Damon potentially kissing her again showed very clearly that she wants him, but she doesn't feel that it's right to. Then in 3.14, Damon DID let the elephant out. Flat-out saying with no extenuating circumstances that he loved her was a definite progression because you can't put that back in the box. You can't blame it on a deathbed confession, or what someone else says and hey, they could be wrong! Then in 3.15, we had Damon pulling away which led to Elena truly hurt ... which she wouldn't have been did she not have those feelings. And while she and Damon were playing the who can pretend they care less game, Elena was reaching a place with Stefan where they could deal with some of their stuff. And them dealing with their stuff HAS TO HAPPEN before Damon and Elena can happen.

TBC
vanimy: D/Evanimy on April 6th, 2012 03:32 pm (UTC)
Dude! You saw my response to your posts in the episode thread!

LMAO!

I know, but I DO feel better now!

Good. :)

I actually think they're trying to please S/E and this is my theory why, they know the long game and they know that it's Damon/Elena -- sooner rather than later -- and that therefore they don't have to appease that fanbase because to them the writing is on the wall. What is happening on the show should suffice. The problem is that they don't seem to realize that just because THEY know what's happening, people have been burned too often to see that logical, narrative flow.

Exactly. I think we've all felt like we were manipulated before albeit in other fandoms.

I think that the opposite is going to happen next season. I do think Damon/Elena will be together, and Stefan will be on the outside and there were still be moments with Elena because she can't help it, she does love him.


Mmh. I'm not sure I'd like romantic Stelena moments with Damon and Elena together.

Honestly, prior to 3.18, I was pretty happy with D/E's progression.

You're lucky! lol As you probably noticed I've been grumbling about D/E since episode 14 ;). Again, not the idea behind it, I'm a sucker for angst so that's not what's troubling me but the execution. I'm no longer mad at Elena though so that's an improvement! lol

Arabian: Stefan03arabian on April 3rd, 2012 01:53 am (UTC)
Part 2 of (yeah, I think it's gonna be) 3 --

Stefan/Elena fans have had no romantic scenes either.

Yup, they did.

3.12 - Elena telling Stefan about the kiss which I know that I and some others didn't see as romantic and about her feelings for Stefan, but I also know that many S/Ers DID see it as such.
3.13 - Stefan admitting he did still love her.
3.14 - Elena working with Stefan again, taking his arm at the dance, him watching her with Damon, showing signs of jealousy, dancing with each other, her telling him that he always respected her, with them having a moment there, and the porch scene which wasn't supposed to seen as romantic, but definitely was.
3.16 - Elena upset by seeing Stefan like that which showed she did still feel strongly for him, and her description of what she felt for him. I dunno, I know I didn't see it as good, but S/Eers might have.
3.17 - Stefan helping her out with Ric, by her side, helping to save the day.
3.18 - Elena showing concern for him (as in not wanting him to go over the edge), yes, he said she was in love with Damon and she couldn't deny it, but she also said she never stopped loving him, and he said he loved her and they he was touchy-feely on her face.

Not over-the-top romantic, but they've definitely had moments, just as D/E have. Now, as I've seen it, other than this last episode, I've been happy because all of the D/E stuff and the S/E stuff points to D/E for me, but to say that they've had no progression, no movement, no moments/scenes that show the deep feelings there is just not true. (Hah! I can't believe you made me recount romantic-ish S/E stuff, LOL!)

I'm one of those who follow a show rabidly because of ships but shipping's only the difference between me following a show with interest and being obsessed with it. ;)

That's me TOTALLY! I can list the names of episodes, writers/directors of shows that I ship. Shows that I don't ship, but really, really enjoy, I can, uhm, tell you most of the actor's names. That's about it.

I know we disagree on this, but I think the dip in ratings isn't just about Delena (it's definitely one of the reasons but not the only one)

Oh, we don't disagree. It's a combination of factors. Too much Originals, lack of urgency (I agree there), but I do think that the biggest reason is Damon/Elena and I say that because the first two factors were in place in the first half of the season.

TBC

Edited at 2012-04-03 01:54 am (UTC)
vanimy: TVDvanimy on April 6th, 2012 03:40 pm (UTC)
Part 2 of (yeah, I think it's gonna be) 3 --

LOL.

3.12 - Elena telling Stefan about the kiss which I know that I and some others didn't see as romantic and about her feelings for Stefan, but I also know that many S/Ers DID see it as such.
3.13 - Stefan admitting he did still love her.
3.14 - Elena working with Stefan again, taking his arm at the dance, him watching her with Damon, showing signs of jealousy, dancing with each other, her telling him that he always respected her, with them having a moment there, and the porch scene which wasn't supposed to seen as romantic, but definitely was.
3.16 - Elena upset by seeing Stefan like that which showed she did still feel strongly for him, and her description of what she felt for him. I dunno, I know I didn't see it as good, but S/Eers might have.
3.17 - Stefan helping her out with Ric, by her side, helping to save the day.
3.18 - Elena showing concern for him (as in not wanting him to go over the edge), yes, he said she was in love with Damon and she couldn't deny it, but she also said she never stopped loving him, and he said he loved her and they he was touchy-feely on her face.


Okay, didn't even realize there's been so many S/E moments.

Still...

Not over-the-top romantic, but they've definitely had moments, just as D/E have.

Yeah but I think S/E shippers who were used to so many moments must feel disappointed. Stefan and Elena haven't kissed since late season 2 (not even the finale actually).

(Hah! I can't believe you made me recount romantic-ish S/E stuff, LOL!)

hehe, playing the devil's advocate here!

Oh, we don't disagree. It's a combination of factors. Too much Originals, lack of urgency (I agree there), but I do think that the biggest reason is Damon/Elena and I say that because the first two factors were in place in the first half of the season.

True but the first two factors weren't that present in the first half. Klaus and Rebekah were heavily tied to Stefan's storyline in the first part of the season. No sign of Elijah and we knew nothing about Kol and Finn. I think there was some sense of urgency because Stefan had to be saved then the Mikael storyline worked because Mikael himself as a villain worked.
Arabian: Damon04arabian on April 3rd, 2012 01:54 am (UTC)
Part 3 of 3 (HUZZAH!) --

I think this season doesn't feel cohesive generally speaking.

I think it does actually, but that totally could be just how I've been viewing it. I just know that when I sit down and watches batches of the episodes (during the hiatus) at a time, there is a clear narrative flow that isn't as obvious when watching it episode from episode with a week in between.

The whole Sage story for example felt like such a waste. The only purpose it served was to show the consequences of killing an original but that could've been done easily with a character like Troy. She was supposed to mean something to Damon, but she didn't, not really, to the point we're not even shown his reaction to her death (remember Lexi's death after just one episode?).

That I do agree with. I think they should have introduced her earlier, and truly made it about her teaching Damon. THen giving us Finn's point of view or something about her (they did the beautiful Stefan/Rebekah love story in one episode, they could have done the same for Sage/Finn). THEN have the brother's episode bringing Sage back into it. Ah well.

Basically I feel like the general idea is still great TVD but the execution is severely flawed.

I think it has some flaws, but I wouldn't go that far. (But you do know how insanely this show's bitch I am, LOL!)

Ric's ring plotline -even though I really loved the twist- was too subtly foreshadowed to make sense for the casual viewer.

I don't agree with that because it has been a continued remarked upon aspect of the Ric/Damon relationship. Like with the sun-and-moon curse they just took their time letting it happen.

Elena and Damon pulling away from each other after the kiss makes a lot of sense from a narrative POV but the execution makes Elena look like she doesn't give a damn about Damon.

I really think that comes from the Damon-stan point of view. I really, really do. The fact that Damon has been pushing her away and deliberately being a jerky-boy for reasons that she can't fathom, yet she tried to reach him still in 3.15, talked about her feelings for him in 3.16, and was worried about him in 3.18, shows how much she does care. Damon has been the jerk to her first, she's just responding to his attitude. Why does she always have to be the bigger person who has to call Damon out (and forgive him) when he's being an ass? Why is Elena wrong because she's not correcting his behavior for the gazillionth time, for not repeating the same thing that's clearly fallen on deaf ears? How does this make her the bad guy? Damon is being a jerk to her. In her mind, she said one mean thing to him and despite ALL that she has forgiven him for (and what he's done has been much, much worse), he's done with her for that one comment. He ignored her phone calls, is sleeping around with women who tried to kill her, isn't there offering support of any kind, is back to being a snarky ass who doesn't appear to give a crap about anyone, all of his walls resurrected. Yet she's the bad guy because she's not calling him on HIS bad behavior ... again. Yet, despite that, she's STILL shown that she does care, and it's obvious feelings ARE there going past 3.11.

Would it help if she was articulating this to someone? Absolutely, and I do think that would help tremendously. Unfortunately, there is no one she can talk to, which is part of her problem. She has NO ONE to talk to about this AT ALL. Ric is out, because that would be squicky. Matt is out, because he's her ex, and even then she talked to him a little about it. Stefan is out, because, well, duh, he's Stefan. Bonnie and Caroline are out, because of Caroline's history with him, and because neither girl particularly likes Damon. With Jenna gone, Elena has no one to talk to about him, really talk about him without automatic judgement of NO!BAD!WRONG! (which is why they SHOULD NOT HAVE KILLED OFF JENNA! Ahem.)

I think the signs are there, but yes, they should be giving us a little more, I don't disagree with that. I just have still seen signs that she cares for Damon in every episode except for 3.17. Not obvious ones, but enough for me to still be okay with it. But again, this show's bitch. ;)
vanimy: D/E (s3)vanimy on April 6th, 2012 04:06 pm (UTC)
PART 1 (:o)

That I do agree with. I think they should have introduced her earlier, and truly made it about her teaching Damon. THen giving us Finn's point of view or something about her (they did the beautiful Stefan/Rebekah love story in one episode, they could have done the same for Sage/Finn). THEN have the brother's episode bringing Sage back into it. Ah well.

*nods enthusiastically*

Basically I feel like the general idea is still great TVD but the execution is severely flawed.

I think it has some flaws, but I wouldn't go that far. (But you do know how insanely this show's bitch I am, LOL!)


LOL! 'Severely' may have been a little too harsh indeed. I may rant a lot on this part of the season (I did like episode 16 and 17 though) but that's because I love this show to pieces and want it back to rocking my world.

I don't agree with that because it has been a continued remarked upon aspect of the Ric/Damon relationship. Like with the sun-and-moon curse they just took their time letting it happen.

Again, hard to judge since i'm not a casual viewer but I think a casual viewer probably forgot about Ric's attitude in episode 4, I know I did at first.

Elena and Damon pulling away from each other after the kiss makes a lot of sense from a narrative POV but the execution makes Elena look like she doesn't give a damn about Damon.

I really think that comes from the Damon-stan point of view. I really, really do. The fact that Damon has been pushing her away and deliberately being a jerky-boy for reasons that she can't fathom, yet she tried to reach him still in 3.15, talked about her feelings for him in 3.16, and was worried about him in 3.18, shows how much she does care. Damon has been the jerk to her first, she's just responding to his attitude.


Again, I understand all this when YOU put it that way but on screen it's different because it hasn't been explicitly shown. So far the only one we've seen suffer in this relationship (this season) is Damon. I think that even as a non Damon fan it's normal to empathize with the person who gets hurt. Elena's feelings have been hard to pinpoint these past episodes.

vanimyvanimy on April 6th, 2012 04:06 pm (UTC)
PART 2

What doesn't work for me here is one simple thing actually.

Elena didn't try to really reach out to him once since DL, hasn't looked at him with any warmth in her eyes whatsoever since episode 12.

In episode 15 yes, she called him and then told him to 'get over it'. Even if I'm no longer mad at her for that it still surprised a lot of people. Elena is compassionate, that's one quality EVERYONE always talks about in the show and it's been demonstrated again and again. Yet when she hurts Damon (and she knows how much words affect him, she knows it!) and she even sees how much it affected him (her witnessing him going after Kol and making a remark to her that shows her words hit him, her telling Stefan Damon's acting all self-destructive) she does nothing. She doesn't go to him that very night ; the next morning when he's just being his usual sarcastic self ('Sorry I've been busy' even with all the Damon sarcasm is hardly an insult) she tells him to get over it. In episode 16 she tells him he needs to stop pushing people away but it sounded a little condescendant to me and not warm at all.

So this all feels like it's not in character for Elena to react like that. I would've liked it better if she had tried to tell Damon she was sorry for telling him this and HE had kept being a jerk.

It would also work if Elena didn't really know Damon. but she does know him. She always has even in season 1 when he was acting like a monster, she got where he was coming from. She's the girl who's always been trying to reach out to him even when they were estranged (and he deserved it then). She's always been able to reach through his walls and see past the snark. Suddenly she can't anymore? After all they've been through in this season? Doesn't make sense.

Again, it would have worked for me if she had tried just once to get through to him and he pushed her away but she never TRIED. And i don't count her very feeble 'No that's not what I-' in DL because even though Damon cut her off he didn't turn away and left her there she could've tried to say something else but she didn't. She could've tried to catch up to him when he left the party but she didn't.

Would it help if she was articulating this to someone? Absolutely, and I do think that would help tremendously. Unfortunately, there is no one she can talk to, which is part of her problem. She has NO ONE to talk to about this AT ALL. Ric is out, because that would be squicky. Matt is out, because he's her ex, and even then she talked to him a little about it. Stefan is out, because, well, duh, he's Stefan. Bonnie and Caroline are out, because of Caroline's history with him, and because neither girl particularly likes Damon. With Jenna gone, Elena has no one to talk to about him, really talk about him without automatic judgement of NO!BAD!WRONG! (which is why they SHOULD NOT HAVE KILLED OFF JENNA! Ahem.)

Agreed!!

But again, this show's bitch. ;)

Heh.