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11 October 2011 @ 09:59 pm
A TVD Spoiler that has me a tad worried ....  
So new spoiler from Ausiello, and it's a somewhat big one, and I haz thoughts!

This is apparently one of a few major twists that are coming up, and it's all about Stefan -- Klaus compels Stefan to completely shut off his emotions, thus paving the way for him to become an official baddie. (There's actually a teeny more specifics to the overall spoiler, as in when, how many other twists, but I figured I wouldn't spoil that bit too.) Everything below, after this, is purely MY SPECULATION.

*Sigh* I have to admit that for the first time since I got into this show, I'm very, very disappointed. Partly because I've had such faith that they would really bite the bullet and go full-throttle, which I suppose they are, and still giving themselves a believable out. But, but, but ... my problem is that it then reads to me as if they are essentially saying that when Stefan goes full-on ripper mode, it won't *really* be his fault because Klaus compelled him. Which really, really worries me not because I don't like that twist, because that actually does work for me, but because it likely means that all the people he's killed this summer won't count? Don't matter? And so Elena, and everyone else will be hunky-dory, lalala, all is fine? Because he really, really didn't want to kill those people this summer, so it's okay.

And then to bring my Damon issues into it, because Stefan chose to save the life of 170-year old vampire at the cost of many, many other innocent human lives, Stefan will still be the "good" brother at the end of the day, but Damon -- who we know has never, does not ever kill as much (and as viciously) as Stefan -- will always be the "bad" brother. And will he continue to be the one who everyone treats like crap, and for whom people recall only his negative actions, but never acknowledging the positive stuff he's done? While doing vice-versa for Stefan?

If this is the case, well, I'll just say that as much as I love The Vampire Diaries, this is a major, major, incredibly major fail on their part. I'm hoping desperately that I'm wrong, and that we'll see some fall-out from all of the murder that Stefan has done, and all of the good that Damon has done. But this worries me, it really does.

ETA: Whoah, back up! A lot of the comments to this seem to not be getting that this is MY worried speculation based on the spoiler, not the spoiler itself.

The reaction to Stefan's summer activities not being followed through, and Damon being seen by everybody as the bad guy with no redeeming quality ever is NOT a spoiler. It's worried, paranoid speculation on my part only. The only spoiler is that Klaus will compel Stefan into full-on Ripper mode -- which he is not at yet -- and that is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. The show doesnt have the luxury of that time.

My fear -- and again, it's just personal paranoia at play here -- is that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy. This twist STILL doesn't take away from all the bad he HAS done this summer, pre-compulsion. Stefan has killed already WITHOUT the compulsion. That I can see being "forgiven" as such as Damon's killing of Jeremy and other bad things he's done has been forgiven, but allowing the others to realize he's not perfect; that the tale Stefan sold them about his awesome goodness will be taken with a dose of reality now.
 
 
 
(Deleted comment)
Arabian: Stefan04arabian on October 12th, 2011 02:18 am (UTC)
I'm kinda assuming this is it. *sigh*

I just really hope there are STILL consequences. I mean, I get this, they do need an out for him to come back after he goes full-ripper status. BUT, what about all the deaths in NON-full-ripper status? There just better be some fallout.
(no subject) - butterfly on October 12th, 2011 03:11 am (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:27 pm (UTC) (Expand)
traciaknowstraciaknows on October 12th, 2011 02:23 am (UTC)
This blows. It would be so much better if her went ripper after finding out that Damon and Elena have been sleeping together. I guess that's what fan fic is for.
Arabian: Damon & Elena(PR)03arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:28 pm (UTC)
Well, I think my worried speculation blows -- that there will be fall-out from Stefan's current activities, and that Damon will still be the "bad" brother, but the ripper compulsion makes perfect sense. It's a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

My fear -- and it's just MY worried speculation based on the spoiler -- is that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

It's just my Damon-stan worry. :(
Kim: (Vampire Diaries) SavatoreBrotherscifan70 on October 12th, 2011 02:26 am (UTC)
OK, so apparently the writers are doing a 180 on both brothers if I read this right? Alrighty then. It's ok for a short time but if this is long term, IDEK.
Arabian: Damon&Stefan02arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:30 pm (UTC)
No, they're not. The whole Damon aspect is completely my speculation. I have no idea if there will be any fallout from Stefan's summer activities. Or that Damon will be perceived as evil forever and always. This is all my worried speculation. The only actual spoiler is that Klaus will compel Stefan to go into full-on Ripper mode. And I personally think that is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.
(no subject) - cifan70 on October 12th, 2011 10:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Not Leaving (D/E)butterfly on October 12th, 2011 03:06 am (UTC)
This is apparently one of a few major twists that are coming up, and it's all about Stefan -- Klaus compels Stefan to completely shut off his emotions, thus paving the way for him to become an official baddie. (There's actually a teeny more specifics to the overall spoiler, as in when, how many other twists, but I figured I wouldn't spoil that bit too.)

Oh, that would be disappointing. Especially since, like you mention, Stefan has already killed countless people over the course of his fake new ripper!hood, so it's giving him a get-out-of-jail-free card that he wouldn't even deserve.
Arabian: Damon & Elena12arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:34 pm (UTC)
See, I don't think the spoiler itself is disappointing. Klaus compelling Stefan into full-on Ripper mode makes perfect sense. It's a necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

What would be disappointing is merely my paranoid speculation that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

it's giving him a get-out-of-jail-free card that he wouldn't even deserve

Only if his summer activities are glossed over.
(no subject) - butterfly on October 12th, 2011 03:41 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - butterfly on October 12th, 2011 05:11 pm (UTC) (Expand)
bluesuzannebluesuzanne on October 12th, 2011 04:09 am (UTC)
WHAT. NO.

Okay I think I am more upset than you. Because I'm not okay with the plot twist at all. It's such a cop out!

SIGH.
Arabian: Damon04arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:35 pm (UTC)
See, I don't think it's a cop-out, and I'm totally, totally fine with the twist. In fact, I think it not only makes perfect sense but that it is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

My fear -- and it's just MY worried speculation based on the spoiler -- is that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

It's just my Damon-stan worry. :(
Daughter of Eve: Vampire Diaries: Team Damonprincess_narnia on October 12th, 2011 05:08 am (UTC)
I have to agree with comments above me. Its just another excuse; an escape route for Stefan. When the ripper phase is over they want Elena (and the audience) to know that it wasn't his fault. *eye roll*

Are they hell bent on letting Stefan just remain so untarnished? Its like vampire without a soul/vampire with soul...or with chip/without chip.

I am still going to keep believing that they'll give me Damon/Elena endgame. I need to. And since for me, Stefan is Angel in this show and Damon is Spike, I'll feel better knowing that Damon loves Elena, with our without a leash/chip/soul/flipoftheswitch/whatever else they want to throw at us.
Arabian: Damon04arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:38 pm (UTC)
It seems like my speculation was mixed in with the real spoiler. Stefan's full-on Ripper status being a compulsion makes perfect sense to me. It's a necessary twist because it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time. So I don't consider it an excuse. BECAUSE Stefan did kill over the summer (and now) not being compelled.

That is my fear, and it's -- at this point -- JUST my worried paranoia at play.

Are they hell bent on letting Stefan just remain so untarnished?

How is a murdering across the countryside Stefan untarnished? He's not. It's just full-Ripper-mode that can't be put on Stefan's choice; the other stuff is though.

And, yes, I still think Damon/Elena will be endgame.

Again, it's just my fear -- and that's just MY worried speculation based on the spoiler -- that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

It's just my Damon-stan worry. :(
ancholiaancholia on October 12th, 2011 08:06 am (UTC)
You remember your previous post when you wondered about people's reaction to Stefan being a ripper and if it would still make Damon the bad brother?
I answered you that I was pessimist and that people would probably excuse Stefan. Well, there it is! The writers really don't assume what they started. I can already see Damon's losing it again because rejected and bla bla bla, same story....
I'm tired of this endless cycle with Damon, more so that it's becoming a case of poor characterization for him and for Stefan when the writers keep them in the stereotype they gave them in the beginning.
Arabian: Stefan01arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:41 pm (UTC)
You remember your previous post when you wondered about people's reaction to Stefan being a ripper and if it would still make Damon the bad brother?

Yes, and we still have no clue whether this is the case or not.

Stefan's actions pre-compulsion are just that ... Stefan's actions. Post-compulsion, he'll have that excuse, but not the earlier ones.

I answered you that I was pessimist and that people would probably excuse Stefan. Well, there it is!

But it's not. Because we don't know that those earlier actions will be glossed over. THAT aspect is FULLY my speculation. I'm assuming that Stefan in full-on Ripper mode will be truly horrific.

All of your concerns are just more worried speculation based on MY worried speculation. The reaction to Stefan's summer activities not being followed through, and Damon being seen by everybody as the bad guy with no redeeming quality ever is NOT a spoiler. It's worried, paranoid speculation on my part only. The only spoiler is that Klaus will compel Stefan into full-on Ripper mode and that is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

My fear -- and again, it's just personal paranoia at play here -- is that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.
(no subject) - ancholia on October 12th, 2011 03:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:15 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - ancholia on October 12th, 2011 04:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Azmiri Sultana Mridulmridul777 on October 12th, 2011 08:55 am (UTC)
SERIOUSLY!!!!!!!!

LIKE REALLY SERIOUSLYYYY!!!! EEEEEU GOD...... Lately I feel like scratching the skin away from my hands, and I only do that when I'm majorly depressed or tensed, nervous or sad, and it's ALL because of TVD. Ugh!!!

If they do this...if this comes true, and ALL of Stefan;s mistakes of forever are forgiven on the expense of this tiny little twist of Klaus's compulsion and Damon keeps getting under the bus, I don't know, how I will ever be able to recuperate.

Saddest Day ever!!!

What's wrong with the writer's!!!
Arabian: Damon05arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:46 pm (UTC)
No, you're mixing up MY SPECULATION with the actual spoiler. (Like everyone else is too. Sigh.)

If they do this...if this comes true, and ALL of Stefan;s mistakes of forever are forgiven on the expense of this tiny little twist of Klaus's compulsion and Damon keeps getting under the bus, I don't know, how I will ever be able to recuperate.

That's only MY SPECULATION that the summer activities will be glossed over. The spoiler itself -- and the ONLY spoiler is that Klaus compels Stefan from this point on to go into Ripper mode -- I don't think is disappointing. It makes perfect sense. It's a necessary twist because it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

What would be disappointing is merely my paranoid speculation that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

It's only my speculation that is disappointing.
(no subject) - mridul777 on October 12th, 2011 03:03 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Azmiri Sultana Mridulmridul777 on October 12th, 2011 09:04 am (UTC)
THIS IS RIDICULOUS......ARE THEY KIDDING ME!!!

I just saw the spoiler you are talking about from TvLine.com, AND this is just another escape route for Stefan. That way he gets to be the baddie, revels in enjoyment, but can roll back withthe excuse of "I was compelled". Ofcourse they will throw in on some redefining and period of repentance for him, to even out edges (or so they thinks), but like you said, I think this way, he will forever be the good brother and Damon will be the bad brother no matter what he does...... GODDD *sigh*

I hate this........

I so hope, wish and pray that what I'm thinking right now proves to be the biggest WRONG-EST thing ever..... :(
Arabian: Damon08arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:49 pm (UTC)
No, it's NOT an escape route, because Stefan has killed already WITHOUT the compulsion. That I can see being "forgiven" as such as Damon's killing of Jeremy and other bad things he's done has been forgiven, but allowing the others to realize he's not perfect.

It's the RIPPER MODE that will be under compulsion and completely forgiven, and again, that IS necessary to keep Paul/Stefan on the show long-term.

like you said, I think this way, he will forever be the good brother and Damon will be the bad brother no matter what he does

Again, though, THAT is speculation. We do NOT KNOW that his prior compulsion stuff will be excused so easily.

I don't hate this at all because it's a NECESSARY thing for the character, they need an out (not a cop-out, but an out) to keep Stefan a viable character. It's my SPECULATION that has me worried.

Edited at 2011-10-12 02:02 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - mridul777 on October 12th, 2011 03:06 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 03:12 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mridul777 on October 12th, 2011 03:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - mridul777 on October 12th, 2011 04:30 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:36 pm (UTC) (Expand)
brightstarmarabrightstarmara on October 12th, 2011 09:37 am (UTC)
That is disappointing. We'll still get to see Wesley getting to go all out, but it won't be Stefan. Not really. And we all know how Elena reacted to Stefan killing Andie AND how she reacted to seeing all those names on the wall.

The cynic in me s going I TOLD YOU SO right now. THe TVD fan is going MEEEEPPPP. Gues what the Damon fan is saying?
Arabian: Damon13arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:54 pm (UTC)
That is disappointing. We'll still get to see Wesley getting to go all out, but it won't be Stefan. Not really.

Number one, I don't find the ACTUAL spoiler disappointing at all. It is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. They don't have the luxury of that time.

Number two, it WILL be Stefan. I doubt that Klaus is going to compel him how to act, but rather just to go into full-on Ripper mode and turn his switch off. His actions and how he acts as a Ripper IS all Stefan.

Number three, it STILL doesn't take away from all the bad he HAS done so far, pre-compulsion. Stefan has killed already WITHOUT the compulsion. That I can see being "forgiven" as such as Damon's killing of Jeremy and other bad things he's done has been forgiven, but allowing the others to realize he's not perfect. (MY paranoid speculation is that this won't happen, but it's JUST that, MY paranoid speculation.)

It's the RIPPER MODE that will be under compulsion and completely forgiven, and again, that IS necessary to keep Paul/Stefan on the show long-term.

And we all know how Elena reacted to Stefan killing Andie AND how she reacted to seeing all those names on the wall.

Yeah, she's in complete and utter denial. That's been pretty obvious. She flat-out said to Damon in the last episode "don't do that here, in this town, in front of me" ie, out of sight, out of mind because she's totally in denial.

The cynic in me s going I TOLD YOU SO right now.

I kinda don't appreciate that. Just saying.

THe TVD fan is going MEEEEPPPP. Gues what the Damon fan is saying?

But the disappointing aspect is based on speculation only. The actual spoiler makes perfect sense.
(no subject) - brightstarmara on October 12th, 2011 02:29 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 02:33 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on October 12th, 2011 02:39 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 02:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on October 12th, 2011 03:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 04:20 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - brightstarmara on October 12th, 2011 04:57 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 12th, 2011 05:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
x5valex5vale on October 12th, 2011 10:08 am (UTC)
It so sounds like Dean/Sam in SPN...I just hope it's not going this way and Stefan will be made accountable for some of his actions...he should have been already been...
Arabian: Deanarabian on October 12th, 2011 01:56 pm (UTC)
Thank you so much.

You seem to be the only person who actually separated the spoiler from my paranoid speculation.

I just hope it's not going this way and Stefan will be made accountable for some of his actions...he should have been already been...

We do not know that his pre-compulsion stuff will be completely forgiven without any misgivings. I'm still hopeful that we will see some realization from the others that the tale Stefan sold them about his awesome goodness will be taken with a dose of reality now.
(no subject) - x5vale on October 13th, 2011 04:55 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Vickie: TVD - Elena Someones Entered Crazy Townsarcasticcheese on October 12th, 2011 12:35 pm (UTC)
So, even in full on ripper mode, he'll still be St. Stefan?

*sigh*
Arabian: Elena06arabian on October 12th, 2011 01:58 pm (UTC)
But THAT makes sense, in that him in full-on Ripper mode needs to be "forgiven" somehow. That twist makes perfect sense. It is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. The show doesn't have the luxury of that time.

My fear -- and it's just my personal paranoia at play here -- is that the murders he HAS committed will be glossed over. We don't know that will happen. And we also don't know that Damon will continue to be totally painted as the bad guy.

This twist STILL doesn't take away from all the bad he HAS done this summer, pre-compulsion. Stefan has killed already WITHOUT the compulsion. That I can see being "forgiven" as such as Damon's killing of Jeremy and other bad things he's done has been forgiven, but allowing the others to realize he's not perfect; that the tale Stefan sold them about his awesome goodness will be taken with a dose of reality now.
(no subject) - silviakundera on October 13th, 2011 04:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 13th, 2011 10:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Silvia Kundera: TVD-Katherine-mouthsilviakundera on October 13th, 2011 03:53 am (UTC)
I had assumed that they'd go with the compelling gig with this episode, but this disappoints me, because what I was hoping was that Stefan would be compelled to forget he loves Elena which would be SO MUCH MORE INTERESTING. That would be a logical, useful thing for Klaus to do to keep Stefan from making trouble for him while still retaining all of Stefan's Stefanness. That would have continued to keep things nice and dark. And I think it would have been completely plausible for Stefan to fall head-in with Klaus in that case, because of their history & his weakness for blood -- there would be nothing emotional holding him back, no reason to resent Klaus & resist. In that context, Klaus is simply his former friend that of course he'd want to help protect from the being chasing him.

[edit: to clarify, the reason I like this route is that I don't personally forsee a recovery time distance from Stefan choosing to flip the switch and being made to flip the switch. If he forgot about Elena and ended up switching off while munching down with Klaus or if Klaus compelled him to switch off, either way in my POV Stefan is consuming the same amount of blood and going back to the habit. So to get him back with the Mystic Falls gang, they'd either convince him to switch back on after Klaus is dealt with or Klaus would remove the compulsion and the switch would be off, then Stefan would need to do the same amount of detoxing and readjusting to society. Which I don't think would need to be 30 years in this case, because he has a relationship with Elena to go back to and Damon & Caroline as well -- bigger support network, more experience with the process. Since that's my POV, I was hoping the character would get to switch off voluntarily and make the reason to stay with Klaus more morally complicated. I wasn't worried about forgiveness, because of now Damon was brought into Elena's life after all his past wrongdoings.]

Now... idk. Okay, so the switch is on. But Damon switched-on wouldn't have done anything to permanently harm Stefan, so I don't see why now Stefan would be okay with working against Elena's interests. idk.

I guess it depends on how they go with this. I am really interested in the wording. What I don't want to see if them using any terminology like "don't feel emotion", because that's a total cop-out, removes all responsibility, and also will preclude him from having any personal relationships with anyone. If they have to go this route, I'm hoping the verbiage will be more along the lines of telling him to vaguely 'flip the switch' or shut off fear&guilt. Because that was my understanding of what vampires could do, from the characters' explanations. It didn't destroy all feelings & emotion -- switched off Stefan clearly still felt strongly about Damon and then became sincerely attached to Rebekah & Klaus in the 20's. Switched off Isabel did turn out to secretly feel something for her daughter. Damon still loved Katherine desperately. They just could make all guilty/morality go away and operate as predators.

re: your speculation... I'm pretty sure that's going to come to pass. They're already doing it on the show now, still shading it like good brother/bad brother when it should be clear through the text that Stefan is actually the more dysfunctional and dangerous in a broader over-time sense. That's one of my few problems with the show. They need to lose the 'good brother' shtick and just let them be two vampire brothers with various baggage.

Edited at 2011-10-13 04:22 am (UTC)
Arabian: Elena04arabian on October 13th, 2011 10:22 pm (UTC)
Re: Your wish for the compulsion.

I don't know, see that wouldn't have worked for me because again, he's WILLINGLY making the decision to rip people apart without conscience or any morality. And THAT I think would be impossible to come back within 30 years or whatever. Plus, it makes it ALL ABOUT ELENA which is part of the problem with Stefan in that through a good chunk of season 01 and damn near all of season 02, he was jut ALL ABOUT ELENA, and that made him pretty one-note. Plus, as a non-Stefan/Elena fan, I would hate to see his reason for going off the juice simply because he doesn't love Elena (compulsion or not). If that were the case, then it wouldn't explain all of the years before meeting Elena that he wasn't. So, yeah, personally for me, that would really not have worked at all.

Now... idk. Okay, so the switch is on. But Damon switched-on wouldn't
have done anything to permanently harm Stefan, so I don't see why now
Stefan would be okay with working against Elena's interests. idk.


Because (a) he wouldn't care, and (b), for Stefan it's Damon >>>> Everyone else. A switched on Stefan might hurt/kill anyone else, but I can't see him ever doing so to Damon, not Damon. Maybe we're coming at this from different angles. Personally, I just don't believe that Stefan's love for Elena even remotely compares to his for Damon (or Damon's for Stefan) so there IS no comparison there. Elena is just a girl that Stefan loves, I don't really see how he's loved her more or less than Katherine or Rebekah so once his in full Ripper mode, he won't care about her wishes, especially if she's not cool with his Ripper ways.

I guess it depends on how they go with this. I am really interested in
the wording. What I don't want to see if them using any terminology like
"don't feel emotion"


They've NEVER shown a switched-off vampire with no emotions, so I can't see them suddenly going there now.

re: your speculation... I'm pretty sure that's going to come to pass. [...] That's one of my few problems with the show. They need to lose
the 'good brother' shtick and just let them be two vampire brothers with
various baggage.</i>

Well, Julie Plec did say in an earlier interview that this season is about evening the playing field, therefore it looks like that is EXACTLY what they plan on doing. So, my speculation does not even remotely jibe with that quote -- which I'd forgotten. So, yeah, I do think that Stefan's pre-compulsion, but still pretty bad actions, and Damon's good actions will matter. To quote myself above, if neither is held accountable for their actions (good in Damon's case, bad in Stefan's) than no evening is happening. And Ian has REALLY been stressing that there is no good/bad brother in his interviews, but rather that both are capable of going to places of darkness, and light. That commentary has to be part of the party line that's supposed to be sold about the season or he wouldn't keep saying it over and over again.

So, I am still hopeful. I'll just say that all of the things that I believed I've read in the text -- even if it doesn't jibe with surface things that have been remarked upon by Stefan, SE fans, or reviewers -- have been proven to be true. So I *think* I'm getting what the show is intending for us to read. And it will all play out in a way that fits with the text. I'm hopeful anyway.
distant_autumn: K - Blood Will Have Blood by ebsolutelydistant_autumn on October 13th, 2011 03:29 pm (UTC)
I know there could be a lot more to it than we're getting from that one line spoiler, but I'm incredibly disappointed by this. I know you're okay with the twist itself, but I hate it. I feel like it's a hell of a cop out and it's basically the opposite of what I wanted them to do with this arc. This show has always been all about the choices these characters make. And I know Stefan's choices will still all have lead him to this moment, and he'll still have done everything he did over this past couple of months, and still have done everything he did in the 20s and in 1864, etc. But... it's just vastly less compelling (heh) to me, that him finally flipping the switch is not going to be about us having watched his powerfully done gradual descent, followed by him making the choice to give in, but just about Klaus making the choice for him. Maybe it'll play out very differently, maybe I'll love it, maybe I'm being unnecessarily cranky about this entire thing, but just in theory, I pretty much hate it.

Honestly, what I would really love is for there to be a big twist and it be a, well, Dumbo feather situation. I.e. Klaus makes Stefan think he's compelled him into it, because that's what Stefan needs to believe in order to do it, but really it's actually Stefan's own choice to flip the switch, because deep down, he wants to do it.

But, but, but ... my problem is that it then reads to me as if they are essentially saying that when Stefan goes full-on ripper mode, it won't *really* be his fault because Klaus compelled him.

Yeah, that's part of what is worrying me. That we're suddenly switching to a BtVS S2 situation, where flipping the switch is suddenly the equivalent to having your soul forcibly removed and not having any responsiblity for your actions. I would hate that. Hate. Not helping is a recent interview I read with Julie, that obviously didn't mention this spoiler, but did just happen to specifically compare Stefan to Angel and that S2 arc.

it likely means that all the people he's killed this summer won't count? Don't matter? And so Elena, and everyone else will be hunky-dory, lalala, all is fine? Because he really, really didn't want to kill those people this summer, so it's okay.

I really hope that won't be the case. I mean, to be slightly more optimistic for a moment, hopefully this is just the happy medium as far as the writers are concerned. I can well believe that the idea is that they'll absolutely absolve him of any and all actions he takes with the switch flipped, but still have him take responsibility for all those other deaths.

Stefan will still be the "good" brother at the end of the day, but Damon -- who we know has never, does not ever kill as much (and as viciously) as Stefan -- will always be the "bad" brother.

Hmm, but there was that quote from Julie a couple of months back, that very specifically said they wanted to use this season to basically even the moral playing field, so I honestly don't think that's where they're heading with it. I certainly hope not, anyway.

and that is a perfect, necessary twist BECAUSE it took 30 years for Stefan to recover last time. The show doesnt have the luxury of that time.

Mmm, but Stefan was talking about it taking that long while still not having flipped the switch, so presumably he even now, just based on the things he's already done, already expects it to take him 30 years. And honestly, even if he doesn't, even if he only said that based on the assumption that he was going to give in and flip the switch at some point... they only just brought that 30 year timescale into play a couple of episodes ago. They didn't need to write themselves into that corner, they willingly chose to. IDK, I'm sure I'll get over it, but right now this whole Klaus compelling him twist is bugging me in and of itself.

That I can see being "forgiven" as such as Damon's killing of Jeremy and other bad things he's done has been forgiven, but allowing the others to realize he's not perfect; that the tale Stefan sold them about his awesome goodness will be taken with a dose of reality now.

Yeah, whatever else happens, I'm thinking/hoping that will be the case.
Arabian: Damon&Stefan03arabian on October 13th, 2011 10:59 pm (UTC)
I know there could be a lot more to it than we're getting from that one line spoiler, but I'm incredibly disappointed by this. I know you're okay with the twist itself, but I hate it. I feel like it's a hell of a cop out and it's basically the opposite of what I wanted them to do with this arc. This show has always been all about the choices these characters make.

See for me we are STILL getting that. I know you refer to these below, but they still really do matter. He made the choice to save Damon's life even if it meant innocents would die. He has been killing people to placate Klaus. These are choices that he has made. And since the whole evening the playing field is supposed to happen this season, then those choices have kinda got to be dealt with. Going all out, full-on Ripper mode really can't be a choice that Stefan willingly makes and have there not be unreturnable consequences from. I just don't see HOW they could have Stefan come back AT ALL and have anyone but Damon still be on his side had he chosen to do that. So I think it's a necessity. And it doesn't negate the awful stuff he did pre-compulsion, it just puts it in enough of a perspective that the character can come back from. And being a television show where Paul Wesley is one of three leads, they NEED that out. They do.

flipping the switch is not going to be about us having watched his powerfully done gradual descent, followed by him making the choice to give in, but just about Klaus making the choice for him.

But again we have to look at the fact that this is a television show and there are things that a character CAN NOT come back from on a television show. In a book, or if he were to remain a villain, the above could work, but other than that, it simply can not. It can't. Honestly, would you EVER be able to buy Stefan as anything other than someone evil whose ass needs to be staked if he could WILLINGLY choose to do that just because his life is kinda sucky right now? I know I couldn't. The most horrible things that Damon did -- randomly killing those two couples in the first few episodes just because -- were done when he'd had the switch off for over a century. Since then, whatever terrible things he's done has been emotionally driven (and don't even remotely compare to what we know switch-off Stefan is like) and compared to a Stefan deliberately choosing to turn off his humanity switch and destroy and desecrate human life just because he's sad ... well, there is NO comparision. Even for the lax, gray morality of this show..
(no subject) - distant_autumn on October 14th, 2011 12:15 am (UTC) (Expand)
Part 2 - arabian on October 13th, 2011 11:00 pm (UTC) (Expand)
youcallitwinteryoucallitwinter on October 13th, 2011 07:44 pm (UTC)
THIS IS INTERESTING, I LOVE THE SPOILER ;D

But honestly, your speculation is correct vis a vis Stefan. Like, I get the WHY of it, because obviously being a main protagonist he cannot willfully be a mass-murderer because that isn't how TV works. But if they don't actually show the fall-out or treat it as something imposed, I SHALL be disappointed. TVD does have a habit of bailing out on both Stefan and Damon. Because they make them do stuff and then they seem unable to deal with it, so there are escape clauses galore. Like Stefan right now is trying to 'protect' the people he loves (WHICH HE IS, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THE WHOLE RUTHLESS KILLING THING GOES AWAY) or what they did with the Damon/Andie relationship to make it audience friendly before killing her off.

Show us whatever you want, BUT GIVE US FALLOUT. MAKE IT REAL.
Arabian: Stefan01arabian on October 13th, 2011 11:00 pm (UTC)
THIS IS INTERESTING, I LOVE THE SPOILER ;D

The spoiler itself, yes.

But honestly, your speculation is correct vis a vis Stefan.

Actually, I don't think it is at all now because I'd forgotten the Julie Plec quote about how this season is about evening the playing field between the brothers. My speculation does not even remotely jibe with that quote. So, yeah, I do think that Stefan's pre-compulsion, but still pretty bad actions, and Damon's good actions will matter. To quote myself above, if neither is held accountable for their actions (good in Damon's case, bad in Stefan's) than no evening is happening. And Ian has REALLY been stressing that there is no good/bad brother in his interviews, but rather that both are capable of going to places of darkness, and light. That commentary has to be part of the party line that's supposed to be sold about the season or he wouldn't keep saying it over and over again.


Like, I get the WHY of it, because obviously being a main protagonist he cannot willfully be a mass-murderer because that isn't how TV works.

That explains the reason for the compulsion to go FULL Ripper.

But if they don't actually show the fall-out or treat it as something imposed, I SHALL be disappointed.

Yeah, I think that will be dealt with.

what they did with the Damon/Andie relationship to make it audience friendly before killing her off.

Sadly, I feel like that was supposed to be a bigger story, but for whatever reason, they didn't tell the originally intended tale and what we were left with was just bad, and something that will always just kinda sit there. :(