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19 February 2009 @ 01:20 am
I'm pretty sure this makes me a bad 'Who' fan and ...  
an RTD-extremist, but what can I say? It's how I feel.

principia posted some growing Doctor Who speculation in her lj, and since I think I totally differ in opinion from everyone else who posted on the subject, I thought I'd discuss it more in length here.

There are apparently rampant rumors that when Ten regenerates into Eleven his sometimes-regenerative-temporary-amnesia will be selectively permanent, ie, the Doctor will forget Nine and Ten's experiences (ie, the RTD-years -- that's Rose, Jack, Martha, Donna, etc.). And supposedly Moffat will be using this as a way of completely ignoring all of the storylines/arcs for the last four series/2009 specials, but also as a way of retconning the Time War.

My thoughts? Honestly, I'd be thrilled if he forgot all of Nine and Ten's existence simply because it means that Moffat's hands will not ever have to deal with the beauty of everything and everyone that RTD created. He won't be able to sully, spit all over, downplay, destroy, etc. what many of us loved. Furthermore, he won't be able to have the Doctor and other better, smarter, more awesome, Mary-Sue characters crap all over any of those memories (and let's be honest, we know that means especially Rose and the Doctor/Rose relationship). So this really, really, really, reallllllllllllllly works with me.

OTOH, I don't get how Nine and Ten's existence being forgotten would make the Time War not happen. That does not compute. At all. Still, I'd really be *really* happy with the first speculation if it keeps Moffat cleanly and totally away from RTD's creations.

ETA: Per principia below, I misunderstand that. The Time War won't happen and therefore Nine and Ten wouldn't have resulted from it. Uhm, okay. Whatever, Moffat, whatever.

Anyhoo, all speculation at this point, so who knows.
killingfrost87killingfrost87 on February 19th, 2009 06:51 am (UTC)
I'm not sure how I feel about that...I'll have to think on it!

I still think I agree with you, as usual, even though it makes me sad.
Arabian: Veronica_Anime-Stylearabian on February 19th, 2009 08:08 am (UTC)
Yeah, I know what you mean. I do, but if it means keeping Moffat's hands off all that RTD created? I can deal with the bittersweet.
sunnytyler001sunnytyler001 on February 19th, 2009 09:46 am (UTC)
I really don't know... But anyway, Moffat wouldn't have kept RTD's storylines and/or characters. This will give us an official explanation to his crap/lack of continuity.
BUT what about River then? She becomes his companion, he falls in love with her (marries her) and THEN he remembers and it's all angst, angst, angst...???
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on February 19th, 2009 07:16 pm (UTC)
Moffat wouldn't have kept RTD's storylines and/or characters. This will give us an official explanation to his crap/lack of continuity.

As for River -- who really I just prefer to forget, I refuse to give her the importance that Moffat wanted us to and so frankly don't care, he doesn't have to remember, and this way Moffat clears it up so that when he does meet her he isn't using her to let her die in the end. And again, it was NEVER even remotely stated at all in the two episode ANYWHERE that he fell in love and/or married her. AT ALL.
sunnytyler001: Lolsunnytyler001 on February 19th, 2009 10:08 pm (UTC)
Just in the Sun...

*dies of laughing*
blackcat_1 on February 19th, 2009 10:35 am (UTC)
I have to say that I like the idea of this, simply for the reasons you have stated.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on February 19th, 2009 07:16 pm (UTC)
If it happens, I can live with it quite happily for these reasons, yup.
Giorgia: DT - meeptazza_di_jo on February 19th, 2009 11:50 am (UTC)
I... don't know what to think about this. You do have a point, this would keep the Moff away from RTD's world, but... I hate the idea that he could forget everything. Hate it, hate it, hate it. It's my most hated sci-fi plot device, the convenient use an erase button to get out of a sticky situation. It goes against what I love most about any show, and that is character development, which comes with taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions, good or bad.

I've never seen any Classic Who, so to me the Time War, and having and losing Rose and everything that happened after, the loneliness, are so much a part of who I know the Doctor to be that I can't imagine what he would be like without the memories. Yes, I'd like to see him get over the angst, but NOT LIKE THIS.

I just don't know... *clings to Ten and RTD*
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on February 19th, 2009 07:18 pm (UTC)
Well, if they go this route doesn't that just say everything about Moffat's writing? Lazy and selfish.
It goes against what I love most about any show, and that is character development, which comes with taking responsibility for the consequences of one's actions, good or bad.
And this is why I refuse to watch Moffat's Who, in his episodes, he's already shown that that is exactly how he writes the show.
faith5by5_1013: Doctor Who: Doctor/Rose: Foreverfaith5by5_1013 on February 19th, 2009 01:19 pm (UTC)
I don't know how I feel about all that. I'll need time to think.

I think for me, I just kind of ignore that the Moffat episodes ever happened (they aren't a part of my personal canon), so I'm pretty sure I'll just tell myself Moffat's entire series didn't actually happen. I do that a lot though. Especially with the completely ignoring certain character deaths that technically happened on certain shows.

I do think the forgetting is probably better than Moffat completely ruining all the amazing-ness of RTD's episodes. Still, I'm undecided about watching Moffat's episodes. I don't want to watch this show that I absolutely love turn into complete crap, but I also don't want to lose it entirely!
Arabian: I ♥ RTDarabian on February 19th, 2009 07:20 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I want to continue watching Who because I've loved it so under Rusty, but because of everything I dislike so intensely about Moffat's writing for the show, I refuse to watch his take on it. If this kind of speculation is any indication, it will be just as bad -- lazy and selfish -- as I expected.
faith5by5_1013: Doctor Who: Nine/Rosefaith5by5_1013 on February 19th, 2009 09:01 pm (UTC)
I know! RTD is a creative genius, in my opinion. But Moffat is just a lazy, selfish writer. And he can't understand human emotions. I swear, if I watch his version of the show, I'll probably end up writing an angry letter to the BBC just because of how much he offends me as a woman. And I know plenty of men who'd be offended by him as well. Maybe it's my whole liberal school environment, but I know a lot of male feminists. And I adore them just for having all these advantages that women aren't given and still fighting for another group to be treated equally to them. They could completely ignore it, but they don't. I watched the most awesome speech by Joss Whedon at an Equality Now event and I'm going to hunt that down and post it for you. Because I think, as an RTD fan and someone who has a lot of issues with Moffat, you'd agree with a lot of what he said!

As I said, I don't know what I want to do yet. And I feel so bad for Matt Smith because I bet he's a great actor and I wouldn't be surprised if he's nothing like Moffat, but he's going to have to deal with a lot of the negative reactions to Moffat's version of the show. Plus, I worry that he's going to get fired because people will blame the anger and the drop in ratings on him. Moffat is the BBC's golden boy and I bet they'll blame Smith first. As I said, I feel so bad for the guy.

I just realized I so need to make an RTD and Joss icon because I'm convinced they are both creative geniuses and evil fan torturers, and just both... awesome.
aroniwen on February 19th, 2009 01:28 pm (UTC)
Hmmmm, that's interesting-- and I've got to say I feel a bit torn about it. I mean, I completely get what you're saying... and the other half of me would be completely enraged because of how sloppy that would be. Just really, really, really bad story telling which offends me on principle.
Arabian: Dr Who (Rose/10/9)arabian on February 19th, 2009 07:21 pm (UTC)
Just really, really, really bad story telling which offends me on principle.
And yet that is all I feel we've gotten from Moffat thus far with relation to this show, therefore, it's just par for the course for him and Who Of course, again, just spec, so it may not happen. But considering all we've seen of Moffat on Who, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this were the case.
lavender goomsthe_spin on February 19th, 2009 02:24 pm (UTC)
I would be okay with losing the memories as Nine and Ten for the same reason; so Moffat can start with his own assy Doctor and for it not to feel totally out of character.

But I will be SO MAD if he retcons the Time War that way because A.) IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE and B.) I ADORE THE TIME WAR ARC. Seriously, in my opinion the Time War storyline is one of the best plotlines Doctor Who has ever had and if Moffat just ignores it I will cry a thousand angry tears. If he wants to bring the Time Lords back, fine, but actually come up with a good way to do it!

It could be cool to have the Doctor wake up and have forgotten his part in the Time War and be all confused as to why suddenly there are no more Time Lords and then find out slowly over the series and then get to have let another breakdown when he realizes he's the reason everyone's gone.

Oh, and also if this happens it will totally destroy the good feelings I had about the River storyline. IT'S NOT POIGNANT ANYMORE IF HE DOESN'T KNOW THAT SHE DIES, WAY TO SABOTAGE YOUR OWN WRITING.
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on February 19th, 2009 07:24 pm (UTC)
Well, it's Moffat and *he* didn't come up with the Time War arc therefore, pfft!, he can do away with it, not as good as something he could do. Whatever.

As for River, eh, I hate everything about that two-parter. Although, yes, taking that away does take away at least the logic we *could* take from it that made it work.

Oh, Moffat. This spec just gives me more reason to not want to watch his Who. As if I needed more.
eolivet on February 19th, 2009 06:06 pm (UTC)
Aww, really? That's...so sad, though. :( I don't want Moffat trampling on those memories either, but to forget Rose, Donna and Martha never existed? Actually seems more like lazy writing to me. :/

I don't want Moffat sullying RTD's creations either, but that almost feels like retcon in the worst way. :( And that bothers me...
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on February 19th, 2009 07:14 pm (UTC)
But that's Moffat right there and why I won't watch his version of the show. He's a lazy, selfish writer. He doesn't want to deal with RTD's creations and only his own, so yeah, he'll just make it all go bye-bye in a lazy plot device.

Of course this is all speculation still, but it certainly fits Moffat's style as seen so far on Who.
Principiaprincipia on February 19th, 2009 07:13 pm (UTC)
OTOH, I don't get how Nine and Ten's existence being forgotten would make the Time War not happen. That does not compute.

That's because you have it backwards. If the Time War did not happen, Nine and Ten would never have existed as-is. Especially not Ten.
Arabian: Dr Who (9) - WTFarabian on February 19th, 2009 07:22 pm (UTC)
Ah, I see. Oh, Moffat -- if you do this? Just hammers that nail home how very much I despise everything about your writing style.