?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
09 November 2008 @ 11:34 am
Doctor Who 1x10 "The Doctor Dances" Rewatch-Review  
As I've stated elsewhere, once I finished season two of New Who, I was going to rewatch and review what I call my "Her Name was Rose" collection (click here for the full list of episodes). I've done the first nine episodes of series one; here comes number ten, the second of a two-parter.

To be completely honest, I am simply unable to be unbiased in writing up a review of any sort for a Steven Moffat episode. Anything positive about the episode, I find myself wanting to give the credit to someone else; anything negative, I happily heap upon Moffat. I'll try and navigate around that bias, but I can't promise that I'll succeed. With that said, "The Doctor Dances."

It's better than the first part, "The Empty Child," without a doubt. The Doctor is fairly in character overall, and while Rose has moments where she's not absolutely Rose, overall, she is. The one major issue that remains is the Doctor/Rose relationship; it's just not them in this one. It just simply is not. There is no connection, no *oneness* between the two. The Doctor treats Rose exactly as he does Jack; there's no discernable difference between the interactions between the Doctor and Rose and the Doctor and Jack. As for how Rose is with the Doctor? As in "The Empty Child," she treats him almost as if he's an afterthought, rather dismissively. She makes digs, one-liners at the expense of his character, of their history. She treats him as if she feels a little sorry for him; as if she and Jack are the cool kids, and the Doctor very, very much wants to join their club. I can't articulate it better than that and I spent much of my viewing of both of these two-parters trying to come up with the perfect explanation as to explain why the Doctor/Rose relationship was so very off. That's the best that I can come up with.

I know that we have the "dancing" conversation and the actual dance, but watching this again with my Moffat-bias firmly in place, I finally allowed myself to admit that I actually don't enjoy either scene. In the first, Rose is baiting the Doctor; it's like a game. What the Doctor and Rose have, their relationship at this point is so much more than that. There is a depth, a bond between the two of them. They share thoughts, inside jokes; they stand too close, grab onto one another's hand. They nudge each other, brush up against each other, catch each other's eye, share secret grins and smirks. They understand when they other is lost, heartbroken, sad and without words they fix what is ailing the other with a touch, with a smile, with the right word, the right phrase, with a look, or the holding of a hand. They don't bait one another; they don't play silly games. Rose doesn't insinuate that he is ever less than.

That's it. That is it. Throughout "The Empty Child" and "The Doctor Dances," Rose treats the Doctor as if he is less than ... less than Jack, less than other men. And for Rose Tyler, the Doctor is never less than, he is greater than anyone and everything in her life in the most basic of ways. It's not about him being a mighty Time Lord, having the all of time and space at his fingertips; it's about how he makes her feel as a person, and how together they've become better people, happier people ... better with two. And that first scene with the dancing conversation, she speaks to him, acts with him as if she is waiting -- but doesn't expect him to -- measure up to Jack. Jack?! A guy she just met a few hours before.

Yes, there were moments where it played as if Rose was flustered, affected by the very thought of "dancing" with the Doctor but I can not do anything but give credit to Billie Piper for that because the dialogue doesn't play that aspect of feeling out. No, it's done so by how Piper delivers the lines, her body language and looks at the Doctor. And, of course, it only lasts a few seconds because most of the dialogue doesn't allow for that type of a reaction from Rose. Despite the fact that that type of reaction from Rose is exactly what one who'd watched the previous eight episodes would expect.

Also, yes, there is a sizzling beauty to this scene, but that I hold accountable to the chemistry between Christopher Eccleston and Piper. They are so dynamic and electric together that in that situation, the slow music, the closeness, the subject being discussed -- even amidst Rose's flirtatious banter about Jack that was more about flirting with Jack rather than with the Doctor and came across, again, as if Rose couldn't fathom the Doctor measuring up to Jack -- that it was impossible to not be drawn in by what their chemistry creates onscreen.

So even with what doesn't work, Eccleston and Piper make it work. See ...

(Watch it streaming via imeem or download it via mediafire here.)


Which is actually quite lessened in the final scene with the actual dancing because Rose seems almost annoyed with the Doctor through most of it. Also, again, we have Jack's inclusion in it which is what Rose seems more focused on. She's dancing with the Doctor when Jack comes in, but is berating him for dancing badly. Once Jack enters, she rushes to him, takes *his* hand and when the Doctor suddenly decides he can dance (more on that later), Rose immediately wants to dance with Jack and only dances with the Doctor because he insinuates that Jack would prefer to dance with him. And then they dance, and it's rather goofy, but not in a fun Doctor/Rose way because it comes across awkward and supremely unsexy and unromantic ... aided, no doubt, by Rose's dismissive attitude towards the Doctor throughout both episodes.

The Doctor and Rose are dancing; I want to love it, I want to adore it, but I'm finally admitting that, no, I don't, I never have. I've always been disappointed with how this scene played out. Back when I watched it the first two times, I thought I was crazy because with the "dancing"/dancing in this episode, it contains the most overt display of a romantic relationship between the Doctor and Rose, so how I could not be happy with it? So I ignored those feelings of disquiet about them and just rah-rah-rahed the discussion and the actual dancing. Watching each episode consecutively and seeing the building love story between the Doctor and Rose grow and develop to have it suddenly ignored in favor of some razzle-dazzle overt discussion on implied sexuality? No, just no. I see and get my earlier disquiet now. That is not my Doctor and Rose. It simply is not.

Still, they are dancing and there are definitely moments of aww! so here are those two clips ...

(Watch it streaming via imeem or download it via mediafire here and here.)



However, that does not take away from the fact that how the Doctor himself, separate from the Doctor and Rose entity, is actually quite, quite in character. In both scenes, he acts exactly as I would expect the Doctor to act. Initially dismissive of Jack, growing tentatively wary to the idea that he might be worth something, before expecting him to do the right thing, and yet all the while, he's jealous of his interaction with Rose. Another pretty boy -- like Mickey, like Adam -- that Rose has following her around. Yes, the Doctor would make cracks about him, yes, the Doctor would be jealous of him, and yes, the Doctor would mark his territory -- as offensive as that sounds, it's true -- with that look he threw Jack's way after he dipped Rose in the dance.

And not just with Jack in relation to the Rose factor, but almost completely all-around, the Doctor is in character. By example and carefully placed words from him, both Jack and Nancy do the right thing, become the better person that the Doctor so often inspires and in their own separate ways save the world. When the Doctor is trying to puzzle it out, reason things through, when he's frustrated, desperate to make sense of it all, that's the Doctor. This is likely aided by how Eccleston so deeply inhabits the Doctor's skin that it all feels natural ... even the stuff that doesn't feel like the Doctor.

Namely, his defensiveness about his sonic screwdriver with Jack. The Doctor is not defensiveness with people he just met, and certainly not with someone that he sees as a rival. And, damnit, he loves that sonic screwdriver! He'd never be ashamed of it, and that's how it came across. And why should he be? If New Who has done anything, it's elevated the sonic screwdriver to superior form, allowing it advances that it never was capable of in Classic Who. A fact that Moffat appeared to remember halfway through this second part of the two-parter. Once the sonic blaster stopped working, suddenly the sonic screwdriver could do so much again, not that it stopped Moffat from putting less-than-flattering quips about it in Jack's dialogue. Still, a small quibble with regards to Moffat's normally immense characterization flaws. The Doctor was pretty much in character this go-round and I appreciated that, and thus the episode more.

As for Rose, in the last episode, I really feel that Moffat just about committed character assassination. The character that Billie Piper was playing in "The Empty Child" was simply not Rose Tyler. And for the first half of this episode, she was less Rose Tyler-ish than usual as well. However, at about the half-way point, she began to become more recognizable. I had issue with the above "dancing" discussion scene with how Rose treated the Doctor, but there were moments, and the overall tenor of Rose wanting something more from the Doctor were in character -- it was just how she went about trying to get that something more that was un-Rose-like.

There were other moments, and in one case a full scene that was brilliant, where we clearly and completely were seeing Rose Tyler. Rose being the one to just blast through the floor to get away was quick-thinking Rose, as was her swift rejoinder about Jack's lack of gratitude when he grumbled. Rose figuring out the nanogene mystery just by the Doctor holding out his hands when he told her she did know what was happening. That was Rose. Beaming at the Doctor's beaming in the TARDIS once everyone lived. Very Rose. Her concern for what happened to Jack came across as how Rose's empathy would normally play out about someone else, as opposed to mourning the guy she uncharacteristically was swooning over. But the best Rose was her scene with Nancy at the barbed wire.

(Watch it streaming via imeem or download it via mediafire here.)


I LOVED this scene; it was easily my absolute favorite scene of the entire two-parter. Rose was empathetic, she was in character, trying to comfort and reassure Nancy, and then, yes, spilling a bit more than she should. But that spilling came out because of her empathy, and she was aware of it and quickly rushed to explain that Nancy couldn't tell anyone that. The happiness on Rose's face, her pride in her nation, in her people was lovely to behold. When she said "I'm a Londoner ... from your future" it was just fabulous, she was so proud. And then Nancy's response about Rose not being German, and Rose's quiet exultation of "you win" ... oh, it was beautiful; a beautiful moment between two lovely actresses. I adored, adored that scene. Honestly, I'm getting teary-eyed just writing this paragraph about it.

Which brings us to a theory that will likely never be confirmed if true, but here goes. I believe that Russell T Davies is responsible for much of the feel of that scene as well as other moments that work so beautifully and somewhat out of synch with other stuff in this one and, frankly, A LOT out of synch with the feel of "The Empty Child." I mentioned this thought in a couple of responses to comments made to my last rewatch-review, and I'm expanding on that here.

I think it's quite possible that Russell T Davies did script tinkering. After all, there would be no reason to have an edict that Davis *couldn't* tinker with Moffat's scripts -- as there was -- unless he'd done so once already. Based on "The Girl in the Fireplace," it's obvious he didn't tinker with that and based on the characterization in "The Empty Child," it's clear he didn't tinker with that one, so I believe that the tinkering was in this one. True, the edict could have been handed down simply because as executive producer, Davis had the power and had tinkered with other scripts by different writers in order to preserve the story he was telling and keep it on track. Still, I can't help but think that it came about because Davis did tinker with this one a bit. Perhaps little moments in the Doctor/Rose stuff, but I really don't think so there. Moffat embedded his views on their relationship so very much in every moment of their interaction that it would have been pretty close to impossible to tinker with their stuff all that much without changing the entire dynamic that Moffat set up ... which served his plot.

It's with Rose alone that I think it's truly possible that it happened because there are moments (and that wonderful scene above) that are so very, very Rose ... a character that Moffat has absolutely no decent grasp upon ... as shown in both "The Empty Child" and "The Girl in the Fireplace." So, yeah, I do think that Davis did some script-tinkering, nothing major, just little tweaks to get Rose more recognizable. I could be wrong, I easily, readily admit that, but the difference in Rose between "The Empty Child" and this as well as the difference between this and Rose in "The Girl in the Fireplace" is so immense in moments, in scenes -- that again, don't quite fit in synch with the rest of this episode, or at all with the previous one -- make me wonder that it was with Rose's characterization that Rusty tinkered. Of course, we'll never know.

ETA: According to salienne, it was in Moffat's contract that none of his scripts could be rewritten at all, so it wasn't Davies' tinkering with the scripts that made the change. However, Davis COULD make suggestions for rewrites and such, so now I wonder (and think it quite likely) that he talked to Moffat -- possibly in length -- about who Rose Tyler truly is because the difference is so there in her character between the two episodes.

Anyhoo, moving along ...

There were still a few gotcha moments in this one (namely Jaime showing up in his room and yet the voice from the recording and the real child didn't change at all and he opened the door and walked in so quietly they didn't notice him), but overall, this one held up together much better. And unlike the first episode where all of the oohs and aahs had been dissipated by the rewatch, I was still genuinely affected by the final scene with Nancy and Jaime, and the Doctor's "everybody lives." Even if it didn't quite all make sense, the emotion was there. I cared about Nancy and her story. Florence Hoath did a wonderful job and made Nancy real to me. And, of course, the Doctor's joy at everyone living for once was infectious, so much so that Rose even acted like someone who wanted to be in the same room with him and shared his joy at the end there.

So overall, as expected, I liked this second of the two-parter much more than the first. The conclusion was strong because the emotion flowed organically out of characters I cared about (both Nancy and the Doctor). As well, the Doctor was mostly in character throughout the entire episode and Rose had moments of such immense Rose-ness that I couldn't NOT be happy about that after the random character bearing her name that I was subjected to in "The Empty Child."

A few random thoughts and then I'm done ...

- I really didn't like (nor get) the Doctor's sudden "Rose, I remembered how to dance!" moment. Was it because Jack showed up? I don't know. It was awkward and a 'huh?' moment for me. I've never ever liked that line/moment, even when I liked Moffat and loved this two-parter.

- I don't like the 80's, raggly-hair grooming that Rose wore in this two-parter. I really don't.

- Too many one-liner/quips in the first half. Way, way too many. In the course of about less than a minute, I counted four. Moffat? Doctor Who, while having comical moments, is NOT a comedy (nor is it Law & Order). Every other sentence doesn't need to end with a punchline.

- I quite liked Jack's final scene in his ship. I really think my dislike of Jack was based on the ridiculous Jack/Rose interaction in (mostly) "The Empty Child" and the fact that Jack is there in the way of my final Nine/Rose episodes.

- Still, pfft! "Our song." Seriously?!?! Seriously, Moffat?!

- What was with the throwaway "red bicycle when you were 12" line?

Finally, handporn! time. Prepare to be amazed yet again. There is no handporn! Again. In a Moffat episode!??! Again. Shocking!

And that's it. No pics, no clips, nothing inspired me in this episode to do so (although, I was leaning towards doing the Rose/Nancy scene, but yeah, too much effort, so no). Whoo!! Thank goodness, I am DONE with Steven Moffat. YAY!!!!

  • Click the image for previous episode rewatch-reviews:


  •  
     
     
    Diana: Back Again -- Doctor/Rosebutterfly on November 9th, 2008 07:34 pm (UTC)
    You know what the really nice thing about these reviews of yours? That make me realize that I don't actually need to rewatch these two episodes (once I start my rewatching back up again).

    Thank you for that!

    Finally, handporn! time. Prepare to be amazed yet again. There is no handporn! Again. In a Moffat episode!??! Again. Shocking!

    Hee.

    Thank goodness, I am DONE with Stephen Moffat. YAY!!!!

    The sweet relief of never needing to watch another thing written by SM again in your life. Ah, I know it well.
    Arabian: Dr Who (Rose/10/9)arabian on November 9th, 2008 08:09 pm (UTC)
    Aww, I'm glad that my suffering will not be in vain and that you now feel unobligated to do rewatches of these again. And now, I don't have to again either. The only thing I'd be tempted to watch again would be the Nancy/Rose scene. (I really did love that one.)
    Salienne de Lioncourtsalienne on November 9th, 2008 08:12 pm (UTC)
    This is a response to a very short part of your post, but it's in Moffat's contract that RTD could not tinker with his scripts. He could tell Moffat what he wanted, where rewrites would be beneficial, etc., but he could not actually rewrite any of Moffat's scripts hiimself. I believe two other writers were granted the same privilege in their scripts (where they get their own rewrites), but everyone else RTD would end up doing the final rewrites on.

    So, no matter how grudgingly (I,too, have so much Moffat-related bitterness), we do have to give him credit for the awesomeness that is things like the Rose and Nancy scene.
    Arabian: Rose_Thinkingarabian on November 9th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
    In that case, I wonder if it was that RTD really talked to Moffat about Rose then because she was so, so much more Rose-like in this one than she was in the other Moffat episodes. I could see him simply ignoring anything Rusty said when GitF came around because of his awards for TEC/TDD, but with this one? I do think that's the possibility then.

    I've never claimed that Moffat was a bad writer, so I'm not surprised that he did write the scenes, but now I do seriously wonder if RTD really sat him down and explained more of who Rose was.

    Going to edit the post above, thanks for the info.
    Jamie: Spike - Brokenlifefailsme on November 9th, 2008 08:50 pm (UTC)
    I've never read anything you've written before, I found this review by accident and have not looked around your LJ at all so I ask this with naivety. How do you feel about Moffat taking over and what do you think of the other episodes he has written?
    Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on November 9th, 2008 10:05 pm (UTC)
    I will not be watching series five under Moffat because I do not like his work as a writer. For many reasons -- which you can find in this post that I wrote yesterday, or also in this much-longer essay written by shinyopals here. But what sums it up best for me and why I will not watch anything else he's involved with can easily be explained with his own words about writing Doctor Who:

    "There’s no need for character development, or chat, it’s straight into: ‘There’s something wrong here, let’s look into this deep, dark hole.’”

    Character development is key for me and if he finds it unnecessary when writing/envisioning the world of Who, then it will not be the show for me.

    As for his other episodes --

    If you read all of this you know that I did not like TEC at all upon analytical rewatch, and I wasn't overly impressed with this one.

    As stand-alone episodes without any context of the series arc and character continuity, I think that for the most part he writes fabulous stuff.

    When I first watched GitF, I actually thought it was a great episode. And I still stand by that. Except it's a great episode that does not belong on the show as envisioned, scripted, directed, acted, etc. by everyone else involved with the show. On its own? Sure. Within the context of the series? Nope. It's the cream of inconsistent sucktastickness. To read a more-detailed explanation, go here.

    I loved "Blink," but the Doctor (and his companion at the time, Martha) was barely in the episode. As for SotL/FotD, I thought pretty much everything -- with the exception of Catherine's Tate acting -- was badly done. It was badly written, badly-plotted, badly cast, the characters weren't that interested and River was smug and annoying (and I say this loving Alex Kingston and having been initially excited about her casting). It was just a very bad two-parter.

    Edited at 2008-11-09 10:12 pm (UTC)
    Jamie: Doctor Who - The 10th Doctor - Huh?lifefailsme on November 10th, 2008 07:27 am (UTC)
    Thanks for the linking. Actually I for one am very, very worried about Moffat taking over. For the same reasons as your and then some. It's nice to discover somewhere on LJ there is someone else who feels like I do with all the squeeing that goes on about him like he's some bloody coming Messiah.
    Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on November 10th, 2008 01:37 pm (UTC)
    Seriously, I think we should set up an anti-Moffat community. I know that sounds horrible, but like-minded people need a place to go and discuss all of this. Seriously.
    Jamie: Dante's Covelifefailsme on November 10th, 2008 02:56 pm (UTC)
    That sounds like a great idea actually. I don't know how many would join it.

    The Who comms on LJ seem FULL of rabid, insane Moffat fans who think he's the next coming of the Messiah!

    It's one of the reason I avoid them like hell

    But if you wanna try it out, see who would be interested or need any help, you have my full support!

    Edited at 2008-11-10 02:57 pm (UTC)
    Arabian: Rose_Thinkingarabian on November 10th, 2008 06:33 pm (UTC)
    I wrote up a post about it, why don't you add your thoughts there.
    Jamie: A-Halifefailsme on November 10th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
    On my way!
    erikssiren: Doctor & Roseerikssiren on November 9th, 2008 09:21 pm (UTC)
    I had this discussion on doctorwho about Moffat (mainly discussing his two-parter in series four) but I think it comes down to the fact that Moffat just doesn't like the Doctor's companions. He'd rather write his own female counterpart for the Doctor while ruining the already well-written companion.

    I really didn't like (nor get) the Doctor's sudden "Rose, I remembered how to dance!" moment.

    I always saw it as a way to get Rose away from Jack. Maybe a way to test out if she'll stick with him now that there's someone in the mix? I don't think he really ever considered Mickey or Adam huge threats, but Jack's a bigger bit of competition.

    That being said, there shouldn't be any competition or testing because it's Rose and the Doctor and they won't voluntarily leave each other. No one can come between them, even Adam could figure that one out.

    Oh Moffat....
    Arabian: Dr Who (9)arabian on November 9th, 2008 10:07 pm (UTC)
    I think it comes down to the fact that Moffat just doesn't like the Doctor's companions. He'd rather write his own female counterpart for the Doctor while ruining the already well-written companion.
    I agree with that assessment completely.
    I always saw it as a way to get Rose away from Jack. Maybe a way to test out if she'll stick with him now that there's someone in the mix?
    Yeah, that was one of my options, but it was just so awkwardly, badly done. Just, ugh.
    That being said, there shouldn't be any competition or testing because it's Rose and the Doctor and they won't voluntarily leave each other. No one can come between them, even Adam could figure that one out.

    Oh Moffat....
    What she said.
    nurse_stineynurse_stiney on November 9th, 2008 09:49 pm (UTC)
    Just to let you know: your interpretation of these two episodes is GENIUS, and I may have to stalk your LJ to go through all of your other DW thoughts. :D You described your dislike of Moffat's companion characterizations VERY eloquently. I will probably quote you with any DW!geek conversation I have from now on. :P
    Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on November 9th, 2008 10:10 pm (UTC)
    Oh, thank you! :D Well, I hadn't put it up before (don't know why I forgot), but there's a link (the Rose image) to all of the rewatch-reviews done, as well as of course you can just click on this Doctor Who tag to find all of my many, many posts on the show.

    Enjoy and feel free to add your thoughts to any post, no matter how old. I love to hear what other people think. I do love discussing the different and/or similar opinions on things as long as we overall agree on our vision of what is best about the show.
    aroniwen on November 10th, 2008 12:57 pm (UTC)
    Hey, I think you just explained why I never loved this episodes like I should (Well, I always thought Rose was a bit off--but then I've never felt that he actually LIKES Rose). I think the problem is how Moffat writes Male/Female relationships, you can see it again and again in his episodes. The only way that they relate to each other is on a sexual/ stereotypical romantic sense. There's none of the deep friendship that I think characterizes their relationship at least as much as their love for each other. They don't relate to each other as partners... it's all flirtation. Regardless of who is attracted to whom, they CARE about each other a good deal, and I think that we see that (and the respect) in other episodes. That said this ep has some brilliant scenes... like the one between Rose and Nancy, and most of the ones between Nancy and the Doctor.
    Arabian: Dr Whoarabian on November 10th, 2008 01:38 pm (UTC)
    Yup, you're absolutely right. The males and females don't relate to each other beyond the wink-wink, nudge-nudge level and the Doctor and Rose are SO beyond that.

    Also, though, this is true: That said this ep has some brilliant scenes... like the one between Rose and Nancy, and most of the ones between Nancy and the Doctor.
    aroniwen on November 10th, 2008 03:55 pm (UTC)
    I've spent a lot of time thinking that my anti-Moffat tendencies are because I'm a Doctor/Rose shipper, (but I also think that even if you want to deny the ship-- you can't deny that they had a strong relationship). So it's nice to see that some people agree, without rabbid shipping as the sole reason.

    And yes, there are brilliant scenes but I think it is notable that the scenes with really excellent character interaction are the ones in which any relationship between the characters in coded AGAINST any romantic/ etc. interaction at all.

    (though I have to admit that I loved the whole setting of this one, blitz London is a fantastic setting.)
    Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on November 28th, 2008 04:37 am (UTC)
    I've spent a lot of time thinking that my anti-Moffat tendencies are because I'm a Doctor/Rose shipper, (but I also think that even if you want to deny the ship-- you can't deny that they had a strong relationship). So it's nice to see that some people agree, without rabbid shipping as the sole reason.

    Right. It's NOT about the shipping; there are so many other legitimate non-shippy concerns with Moffat, in my book.

    And yes, there are brilliant scenes but I think it is notable that the scenes with really excellent character interaction are the ones in which any relationship between the characters in coded AGAINST any romantic/ etc. interaction at all.

    YES! All of the scenes that work sooo beautifully are not done in Moffat's style of "romance." Ugh, Moffat.

    (though I have to admit that I loved the whole setting of this one, blitz London is a fantastic setting.)

    Me too.

    (And re: your icon ... no, you don't.)
    eolivet on November 10th, 2008 05:25 pm (UTC)
    I really didn't like (nor get) the Doctor's sudden "Rose, I remembered how to dance!" moment. Was it because Jack showed up?

    I always saw that as the Doctor "marking his territory," so to speak. Rose is about to go dance with Jack, and suddenly, the Doctor "remembers" how. Kinda passive-aggressive, but Nine had his moments of that, IIRC...

    What was with the throwaway "red bicycle when you were 12" line?

    To make the Doctor seem like a creepy stalker. That line has ALWAYS given me the creeps. Talk about cheapening the relationship... It proves how Moffat sees the Doctor, not as a different species altogether, but "a guy with special powers."

    And reading your reviews, your Moffat post and the one you linked to, that becomes even more apparent. The Doctor acts too "human" in Moffat's eps...he's just a "guy with special powers." No wonder he thinks the Doctor and Rose can't be in a relationship if they're not having sex. :x
    Arabian: Dr Who (9) - BTarabian on November 28th, 2008 04:35 am (UTC)
    I really didn't like (nor get) the Doctor's sudden "Rose, I remembered how to dance!" moment. Was it because Jack showed up?
    I always saw that as the Doctor "marking his territory," so to speak. Rose is about to go dance with Jack, and suddenly, the Doctor "remembers" how. Kinda passive-aggressive, but Nine had his moments of that, IIRC...

    Yeah, that's what I meant by "was it because Jack showed up?" But it was just such a, frankly, bad way of writing it. It just came across as silly to me and kinda stupid and I don't think of the Doctor as stupid. Just the phrasing of it. Just, no.

    What was with the throwaway "red bicycle when you were 12" line?
    To make the Doctor seem like a creepy stalker. That line has ALWAYS given me the creeps. Talk about cheapening the relationship... It proves how Moffat sees the Doctor, not as a different species altogether, but "a guy with special powers."

    True. That does make sense.

    And reading your reviews, your Moffat post and the one you linked to, that becomes even more apparent. The Doctor acts too "human" in Moffat's eps...he's just a "guy with special powers." No wonder he thinks the Doctor and Rose can't be in a relationship if they're not having sex. :x

    Moffat, just UGH!
    (Anonymous) on November 20th, 2008 09:05 pm (UTC)
    the Doctor is...greater than anyone and everything in her life
    the Doctor would mark his territory...

    (This'll sound psycho!) You hit the reasons I liked "TEC"/"TDD" more than "GitF". We know Rose loves the Dr; he is, as you said, greater than anybody in her life.

    Conversely, the Dr's feelings are harder. He likes all who are brave/good (Jabe, Harriet). He mourns loss/death in general, even his people whom he didn't like and van Statten's men. Past incarnations mourned dead companions; 5 died for Peri. It's arguable that he may feel the LOSS of Rose, not the loss of ROSE. I heartily disagree, but that's me.

    "TEC"/"TDD" changes this. Jack is smart (9 insults Mickey's intelligence), brave, good; not a jerk (Adam); saves Rose, doesn't insult her (no "stupid ape"); travels in space/time. 9's only objection? "He's not really a captain." With no legit reason to dislike Jack, how can one explain 9's coolness, as you said, the territory-marking (like the look, described in the commentary as "Welcome to the TARDIS. Hands off the blonde")?

    It's very hard, UNLESS 9 is in love with Rose.

    Unfortunately, "TEC"/"TDD" is the only story arc with a serious competitor to the Dr for Rose's affections.



    ...Rose seems almost annoyed with the Doctor....

    The scene was odd, I agree. Rose yelling at 9? Rose's throaty "You may cut in"?

    But perhaps I'm dense; I didn't see any irritation with 9. Her hesitation when she says Jack might want a dance doesn't seem irritated, and I found her grin before she joins 9 like the "Boomtown" grin you capped. In both, 9 exerts himself over Jack in a testosterone battle; Rose gives a "Men! Such children, sometimes - but the Doctor's so cute and loveable anyhow" grin (imo, anyhow!). Nice continuity from RTD.

    The dancing - is it really weird? I guess! I loved the dancing, personally. I've done partner dances, and it's not easy to move in sync like that without practice and an understanding of the partner. I took it as a sign 9 and Rose KNOW each other and it's more than romance (the Doctor is better than a boyfriend!).


    ...he loves that sonic screwdriver! He'd never be ashamed of it...

    Perhaps I didn't watch right, but I never felt the sonic screwdriver didn't work or that 9 was ashamed. For the first: the Doctor was testing Jack. Rose asks (offside) what's wrong with his screwdriver; 9 says, "Nothing." He doesn't bring it out, thus forcing Jack to reveal the gun. 9 learns about Jack without speaking himself. Very clever (imo, anyhow).

    Where the screwdriver does appear, against the mask people: it wasn't going to kill anybody, because the Doctor doesn't do that. Very in character. Plus, 9 always beats Jack - 9 lifts the gun AND the gun's batteries die!

    I didn't mind the quips - a screwdriver IS weird. The Dr uses it for door locks, electrical wires, barbed wire, teleports - not screwdriver work. Even the sonic pen (or a key/blowtorch) makes more sense. It's like FF authors who have 9 poke fun at 10's pinstripes - DT looks great, but a pinstripe suit isn't wise for fighting goopy monsters and running. We take it for granted as normal, but it doesn't make practical sense. It's like Superman: "Why tights? Why a cape? You're a grown man. Don't you feel ridiculous?"


    But the best Rose was her scene with Nancy at the barbed wire.

    I'm glad you mentioned this; I loved this too but haven't seen it mentioned before. It's brilliant and touching. I love the parallel Dr/Nancy scene too (on British bravery).

    Still, I must disagree respectfully with the theory that RTD put the feel in. We know RTD didn't write it, and since Moffatt ignores RTD's characterization and suggestions, why would he suddenly listen here?

    2nd is the British sentiment in both scenes. Both the Nancy/Rose and Dr/Nancy scenes have British sentiment. RTD loves Wales; I see Wales through his scripts and comments. Moffatt, though, even comments on non-British reaction to the Dr/Nancy.

    Lastly, we know Moffatt penned the Dr/Nancy scene (he discusses a line he cut); and if he wrote that, I'd assume he wrote Rose/Nancy.



    I don't like the 80's, raggly-hair grooming

    It's crap! I'm undecided if "Father's Day" or "TEC"/"TDD" had worse Rose hair. Bleh.
    sammie28 on November 26th, 2008 05:15 pm (UTC)
    Oh, this comment was me. I must've entered it wrong that it came out as "Anonymous". Rip in! ;-)
    Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on November 28th, 2008 04:32 am (UTC)
    Hah, got it!

    With no legit reason to dislike Jack, how can one explain 9's coolness, as you said, the territory-marking? It's very hard, UNLESS 9 is in love with Rose.

    Yup, I do agree with this. I am not a Moffat fan, but I'll give him that that when writing Nine, he made it clear that the Doctor DOES have feelings for her of the romantic nature (of course, that went to hell in a handbasket when he wrote for Ten who Moffat made pretty much forget Rose's existence.)

    Unfortunately, "TEC"/"TDD" is the only story arc with a serious competitor to the Dr for Rose's affections.

    Well, I wouldn't say "unfortunately," because I think we just needed to see it the once to get the message.
    ...Rose seems almost annoyed with the Doctor....
    The scene was odd, I agree. Rose yelling at 9? Rose's throaty "You may cut in"?

    But perhaps I'm dense; I didn't see any irritation with 9.


    Honestly, it's been so long since I've watched it now, but I just remember being rubbed very wrong by how Rose was treating the Doctor in this scene, and that's what I put it down to. You could be right, and I really don't want to go back and rewatch Moffat this close to just getting done with him (LOL!) to re-analyze it.

    The dancing - is it really weird? I guess! I loved the dancing, personally. I've done partner dances, and it's not easy to move in sync like that without practice and an understanding of the partner. I took it as a sign 9 and Rose KNOW each other and it's more than romance (the Doctor is better than a boyfriend!).

    Oh, I love that they danced, but it just I don't know, it was the song, the style of dance, the way it was shot. I liked them dancing, it was the whole execution all-around that just felt off.

    Perhaps I didn't watch right, but I never felt the sonic screwdriver didn't work or that 9 was ashamed. the Doctor was testing Jack.

    I didn't get that angle at all. It just came across to me totally that the Doctor was being defensive about having "just" a sonic screwdriver and that was just SO not the Doctor.
    But the best Rose was her scene with Nancy at the barbed wire.
    I'm glad you mentioned this; I loved this too but haven't seen it mentioned before. It's brilliant and touching. I love the parallel Dr/Nancy scene too (on British bravery).

    Really? People don't point out this awesome scene? I just think it's WONDERFUL.

    Still, I must disagree respectfully with the theory that RTD put the feel in. We know RTD didn't write it, and since Moffatt ignores RTD's characterization and suggestions, why would he suddenly listen here?

    Well, it would have been the FIRST time, that's why. Like after TEC, Rusty said, you know Rose would be a little more empathetic about the situation, more in tune with the Doctor and not all that swoony over some new guy. And being only his second script for the show (and before he began to get all of the awards and hosannas for how awesome!amazing!fabulous! he was for Who), I find it quite possible that he did take RTD's notes into account for this one simply because Rose was SO MUCH more recognizable and in character in this one.

    2nd is the British sentiment in both scenes. Both the Nancy/Rose and Dr/Nancy scenes have British sentiment. RTD loves Wales; I see Wales through his scripts and comments. Moffatt, though, even comments on non-British reaction to the Dr/Nancy.

    Well, Moffat wrote the scene (it's been already pointed out RTD can't rewrite his scripts), so the British sentiment would still be there, but in addition would be RTD's input about how Rose would REALLY act. Both can co-exist to make the scene as is.

    It's crap! I'm undecided if "Father's Day" or "TEC"/"TDD" had worse Rose hair. Bleh.

    Yeah, three in a row! Blech! Actually, I do prefer FD though because that just looks like a lazy up-do, this looks like she actually put effort into making this hideous hairstyle. Ugh.