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05 December 2006 @ 06:47 pm
What the HELL!???! Reaction to the reaction to the new VM spoilers  
I am positively, absolutely mind-boggled at the reaction from some people in the fandom about the new round of VM spoilers. SERIOUSLY!

Do I like the spoilers about Logan sleeping with Madison, Veronica finding out and dumping him over it? Absolutely not. However, I'm upset with Veronica, not Logan. But I can not fathom how anyone can see Logan as the bad guy here. Seriously. Do I understand why Veronica is upset? Absolutely. But dumping him for it? No way. And I simply can not understand how anyone can be mad at Logan, wondering how he can be forgiven. He. Does. Nothing. Wrong. Grrrr.

They broke up. She took it, didn't fight it, fight for him, they are over. It's not a break, it's not a 'let's see how things play out,' it was the end of their relationship. And then a month later or so he is lonely, unattached and hooks up with another lonely, unattached, willing female. How is this out of a character? He's an unattached 19 year old guy who has no expectation that he's going to get back together with the girl HE broke up with. He did nothing wrong. At all. As far as he knows, their relationship is completely over. It's not like he jumps into bed with someone the day after ep 9. It's three to four weeks or so. He's a single, unattached guy. Single, unattached guys -- even nursing what they believe is unrequited love -- have sex with single, unattached females and it doesn't make them evil. It makes them human and 19-year-old boys with a healthy sex drive.

He did nothing wrong.

He did NOTHING wrong. Veronica? Now her, I'm not so sure about. She breaks up with him because he slept with a girl A MONTH AFTER THEY BROKE UP! They. Were. Broken. Up. Not on a break, not in the middle of any stage of ambiguity. They were over. Again -- beating my head in an endless refrain -- he did absolutely nothing wrong. The fact that she dumps him for something he did when they weren't together? Wrong. Get pissed? Sure. Give him the silent treatment for a week? Sure. Withhold sex for a few weeks? Sure. Make him feel guilty as hell for a few weeks? Sure. And then after all of the above, get over it. But break up with him!?!?!? For something he did when they were not even dating!?!?!? WHAT THE HELL?!!? No way.
 
 
 
Kirsty: oth : brooke : b&w fringewowsugarpuss_ on December 6th, 2006 12:03 am (UTC)
Are people seriously pissed at Logan? Everywhere I've read people are only pissed at the writers but maybe I'm missing somewhere lol.

I hate the fact that they have to have a stupid contrived situation like this, just so RT can have a way to bring back the snark. But I can't at all see how Logan is supposed to be the bad guy. I can see RT and KB portraying it that way because hey, that's what they like to do, but Logan having meaingless sex a couple weeks after he dumped her is no worse than Veronica hooking up with Duncan a couple weeks after she dumped him.
And how the hell is Logan supposed to know how much she hates Madison? They didn't really have any deep and meaningful conversations about the 09ers back when they were in high school, and I doubt they have since.
But even if he did, why the hell should he care what Veronica thinks about the people he hooks up with? I doubt Veronica cared about the awkwardness her dating Duncan again would cause between Duncan and Logan, and if she hooks up with Piz in the future I doubt she'd consider Logan's feelings about him first.

And poor lil Logan had to deal with being all alone over the holidays.. again :( he needs something to take his mind off the anniversary of being force fed pears by his dad and watching said dad screw his girlfriend on tape.
Arabian: Joie_Flowerarabian on December 6th, 2006 12:12 am (UTC)
Are people seriously pissed at Logan? Everywhere I've read people are only pissed at the writers but maybe I'm missing somewhere lol.

I've read asking how he can be forgiven after this, and well, he better be drunk, and I can understand why she's upset since it's Madison after all! GAH!

I hate the fact that they have to have a stupid contrived situation like this, just so RT can have a way to bring back the snark. But I can't at all see how Logan is supposed to be the bad guy.

I KNOW!!!!!!!!

I can see RT and KB portraying it that way because hey, that's what they like to do,

I actually don't expect RT to be down on it, but I expect BitchBell to be all over it like there's no tomorrow.

but Logan having meaingless sex a couple weeks after he dumped her is no worse than Veronica hooking up with Duncan a couple weeks after she dumped him.

I actually think it's worse because Logan just has a one-night stand, Veronica gets into a serious relationship with a guy she was flirting with the entire time she was dating Logan!

And how the hell is Logan supposed to know how much she hates Madison? They didn't really have any deep and meaningful conversations about the 09ers back when they were in high school, and I doubt they have since.

I know!! The only time I can recall MS coming up in any significant way was in ANMMHE and there was nothing in that convo which made it seem like Veronica specifically hated Madison so much.

But even if he did, why the hell should he care what Veronica thinks about the people he hooks up with?

I know!!! When he sleeps with Madison he thinks it's OVER with Veronica, they aren't getting back together. So, why would he even think, why would the thought even cross his mind that 'wait, I shouldn't sleep with this girl because maybe Veronica doesn't like her?' As far as he knows, it's over.

I doubt Veronica cared about the awkwardness her dating Duncan again would cause between Duncan and Logan, and if she hooks up with Piz in the future I doubt she'd consider Logan's feelings about him first.

Of course not. She's Veronica -- the perfect, pretty, pretty princess and all men must fall at her feet. Ugh.

And poor lil Logan had to deal with being all alone over the holidays.. again :( he needs something to take his mind off the anniversary of being force fed pears by his dad and watching said dad screw his girlfriend on tape.

I KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!
Kirsty: vm : logan : playstationwowsugarpuss_ on December 6th, 2006 12:25 am (UTC)
I've read asking how he can be forgiven after this, and well, he better be drunk, and I can understand why she's upset since it's Madison after all! GAH!

Argh, seriously? That's just.. pathetic. I seriously do not want to have to deal with all the shit the Logan-haters are going to spout when this happens.
And I can understand why she'd be upset - thinking about your boyfriend recently having sex with a girl you despise isn't exactly going to be a fun experience for her, but dumping him is just way too extreme.

I actually don't expect RT to be down on it, but I expect BitchBell to be all over it like there's no tomorrow.

Can you even imagine?! "He like totally cheated on her with Mac's sister, how could she ever be with him again?!" because obviously, she'll be a little hazy on all aspects of this. dear god, it's going to be painful.

I just.. grr. The only way I think they can rationalize it is if Logan flat out lies about being with Madison, but even then.. he's in a lose lose situation, she'd probably dump him either way. At least by lying he has a chance, LOL.
Arabian: Peace_LEarabian on December 6th, 2006 12:50 am (UTC)
I agree with you -- lose/lose situation. If Veronica asks him about anyone he hooked up with, if he says Madison, she'll be pissed. If he doesn't, there's the chance she'll never find out, so all is good. If she does find out, she'll be pissed. So basically it's lose/lose.

You know there's a reason I decided to STOP reading Bitchin' Bell's interviews, and this latest "twist" by Rob is an excellent reason to keep on that non-habit.
live through this and you won't look back: } into a grey sky morningbuffyx on December 6th, 2006 12:18 am (UTC)
Most people I see reacting to it are raging at the writers for coming up with something so stupid, or pissed that it's giving Veronica a chance to ride her high horse again. I haven't seen a lot of Logan bashing (the closest I've seen is people saying that he's "regressing," which I do think he is, in a sense-- what happened to the Logan who was "over" his bimbo phase? sigh!).

That said, I totally agree with you. And this seems really stupid that this, of all things, is the ultimate dealbreaker for Veronica. Basically her dumping him just proves that Logan was right all along. He's never going to be able to change enough to suit her desire. She's always going to be looking down her nose at him.

Arabian: Look of LoVearabian on December 6th, 2006 12:21 am (UTC)
Most people I see reacting to it are raging at the writers for coming up with something so stupid, or pissed that it's giving Veronica a chance to ride her high horse again.

Right, I've seen that the most too, but the fact that I AM seeing some people react this way (not the majority by any stretch, but still ...) is just mind-boggling to me.

I haven't seen a lot of Logan bashing (the closest I've seen is people saying that he's "regressing," which I do think he is, in a sense-- what happened to the Logan who was "over" his bimbo phase? sigh!).

It's on The LoVe Shack.

That said, I totally agree with you. And this seems really stupid that this, of all things, is the ultimate dealbreaker for Veronica. Basically her dumping him just proves that Logan was right all along. He's never going to be able to change enough to suit her desire. She's always going to be looking down her nose at him.

Yup. I seriously wonder if Rob IS trying to make viewers hate Veronica. If he is ... he's doing a dang good job. Or is he THAT clueless to how much viewers empathize with Logan now over the cold, smug, bitchy, pretty, pretty princess that Veronica has become.
live through this and you won't look back: » breathe you inbuffyx on December 6th, 2006 12:28 am (UTC)
Ah, okay. I've only been looking on TWoP.

The only somewhat sympathetic to Veronica way I can look at this is-- Veronica judges everyone before anyone can judge her. She doesn't want to let anyone close enough to see how flawed she secretly knows she is, so riding her high horse and pushing everyone away by holding them up to impossibly high standards is just a preventative measure. But in order to keep from hating herself for her own fucked-up nature, she deludes herself into thinking these are normal, healthy expectations to have in a relationship.

Of course, that assumes Rob Thomas has thought that far into Veronica's characterization, so, hahahaha, yeah, right.

Arabian: Mulder and Scullyarabian on December 6th, 2006 12:53 am (UTC)
Hahaha, yeah, that's funny. Rob who didn't think that Veronica was written (or acted) any differently in season two than season one!?! Hah. That's funny, that's very funny ... but then it's not.

If I truly believed this was leading somewhere, maybe I'd be okay with it -- but I don't. I expect her dating Asshead for awhile (probably jumping into a relationship with him in ep 14) and with him through most of the rest of the season (with Bitchin Bell playing it as if Veronica has found her new twu wuv!) and then boom, something happens in the 18 or 19, they break up (I'm sure it's done nobly on Asshead's part though) and then in the last five minutes of ep 20, Logan and Veronica are miraculously back together.

Maybe it won't go down that way, but can anyone blame me for expecting that?! Ugh.
live through this and you won't look back: } this is all of mebuffyx on December 6th, 2006 12:30 am (UTC)
Oh! And let me add: How hypocritical is it for Veronica to loathe Madison so deeply and yet be totally fine with Dick all of the time?

What. the. fuck. ever.
taxidoll on December 6th, 2006 12:45 am (UTC)
And a follow up: how is it wrong for Logan to sleep with Madison when he and Veronica are broken up, but acceptable when Veronica waits a couple weeks to jump into a serious relationship with his (ex)best-friend?

This is a huge step back in the entire first arc of growth on Veronica's part.
Arabian: Logan = Emo Boyarabian on December 6th, 2006 12:59 am (UTC)
buffyx -- I KNOW!! Dick attempts to drug Madison. Madison gives her drink to Veronica after spitting in it. Dick leaves Veronica out of it in a room with the guy who rapes her (which is exactly what Dick was pushing for) and yet, Dick she can joke around and quip and do stupid-ass dances with ... but Madison is still evil personified?

Ditto-ing your What. the. fuck. ever.

taxidoll -- I KNOW!! Especially a guy that she was flirting with (if her moony eyes during their scenes together were any indication) all the time she was dating Logan!

WHAT. THE. FUCK. EVER!
beatlegirl59 on December 6th, 2006 12:33 am (UTC)
I'm confused. Are they getting back together and then she's breaking up with him AGAIN???
Arabian: KB_Kissx2arabian on December 6th, 2006 12:56 am (UTC)
They get back together in episode 10 (with only two words spoken between them in the entire episode, so no issues dealt with). Veronica finds out he slept with Madison over the holidays (you know when THEY WERE BROKEN UP!) and dumps Logan.
beatlegirl59 on December 6th, 2006 03:02 am (UTC)
That's so messed up! What is the point of that??? I can't deal with the drama, ugh. If they're gonna break up they should be broken up for awhile, I hate this on again off again crap.
sowell: Doh! by xxfivewordssowell on December 6th, 2006 12:40 am (UTC)
This...I just...no. I am so very, very not cool with this. Their breakup was SO well done, and I was SO happy they managed to write it in a way that wasn't four steps backward. And now this!!!

Why the HELL would they have them get back together and then break them up AGAIN??? They want to have Logan sleep with Madison and have Veronia get all pissy about it? Fine. Let her be pissy, let her be jealous, let her FUCKING PINE A LITTLE BIT.

But the fact that they're getting them back together just so Veronica can do the dumping?! No. No. So very much no. I'm sorry. I'm NOT COOL with this development.

Arg. This is why I need to learn no to click on the spoilercut! SO ANGRY.
Arabian: ATttD - Sorryarabian on December 6th, 2006 12:57 am (UTC)
I was even thinking of you and how at least you wouldn't have to deal with this until ep 12 because you're spoiler-free. But really, I can't imagine that it's not better knowing now, imagine the absolute painful sucker-punch from hell you'd get if you were thrilled about ep 10 and then whammy! comes this baby.

Is it any wonder I don't feel like writing?
sowell: Doh! by xxfivewordssowell on December 6th, 2006 01:11 am (UTC)
Honestly, I'm really happy I'm prepared for this. It would SUCK to not know this was coming. Just, so much shock and anger.

Why would they go ten steps back on their relationship like this. After their breakup, I was actually OPTIMISTIC about where they might go for the rest of the season. It's not that I don't enjoy their snark, but I want their final reconciliation (and we BETTER get one) to be earned, and not rushed. How are they ever going to reconcile them after this?

Is it any wonder I don't feel like writing?
I can't seem to write anything lately that doesn't end in heartache and death. Oh, THIS SHOW.
Arabian: Pilotarabian on December 6th, 2006 01:17 am (UTC)
All I can say is that there a reason I do NOT like Rob Thomas. There is a reason I believe absolutley that he dislikes the L/V shippers intensely (after all, it's our fault that his story of twu wuv didn't succeed). There is a reason that I began "expecting the worst" in regards to this show from ep 10 and onward in S2.

I'm glad you gave in and clicked the spoiler because I wouldn't want to imagine where you'd be when it happens if you didn't know.

I can't seem to write anything lately that doesn't end in heartache and death.

And since I don't write heartache or death in this situation, I can't write period. I can do the angst, but only when there is fluff and happiness at the end of the rainbow. And I just can't do that now.
sowell: Doh! by xxfivewordssowell on December 6th, 2006 01:28 am (UTC)
Yeah, I'm not feeling the optimism so much, at this point.
nessaassennessaassen on December 6th, 2006 01:30 am (UTC)
I'm so glad you know (and that everyone is finally able to talk about it.) I am kind of devastated. It's just--the thought of Logan sitting in his hotel room, wasted with sadness and heartbreak--I just don't know if I can even watch it.

sowell: Logan by janeartsowell on December 6th, 2006 01:40 am (UTC)
It's just--the thought of Logan sitting in his hotel room, wasted with sadness and heartbreak--I just don't know if I can even watch it.

Oh god, the sadness. I really needed Veronica to do some pining this time around. Ugh. Sometimes it's hard to keep rooting for these two when it's so one-sided, all the time. What motivation is there for them to get back together after this?

Meanwhile, I should probably start posting about this in my own journal so I can stop spamming other people's. :)
nessaassennessaassen on December 6th, 2006 02:04 am (UTC)
And it's just like you wrote about before, after 3.07: why can't she love him enough? Enough to accept him? To forgive him? I wasn't on board then, with the I-just-want-Logan-to-be-happy sentiment--I wanted them to be together too much. But now, I just don't know anymore. So depressed (and unhealthily emotionally invested).

Arabian: Booksarabian on December 6th, 2006 01:48 am (UTC)
Yeah, I'm glad that people now know. It's just -- yeah, what you said, poor depressed, woobie Logan to the extreme. Sigh.

Oh, spam away, spam away, LOL!
tigereyes320: LVS3Logantigereyes320 on December 6th, 2006 01:30 am (UTC)
Preaching to the choir sister
I know! I read this spoiler thread and was like WTF!!!!

Why is anyone even considering what Veronica is doing is right?

I can understand how she feels, but let's get real what girl could Logan sleep with that Veroniva wouldn't/couldn't/doesn't hate. But it's her insecurities and problem.

In no way shape or form is Logan sleeping with Madison, making Logan bad. The only thing I question is his sanity, but not his right to do it.

It's just another way for FT to make Logan the bad guy and Veronica get on her high horse. I really think we need to write him and ask him if he want this to be the last season of Veronica Mars. Because if he does this he is forever painting Veronica as a one dimensional harpy.
Arabian: Logan_Hiarabian on December 6th, 2006 01:51 am (UTC)
Re: Preaching to the choir sister
And I just don't see how Logan is the "bad guy" here. But I'm already reading it, ugh! I think RT knows this is the last season and doesn't care.

I just, guh!! This is NOT going to be fun. And word to Jason Dohring, Rob Thomas and anyone else in the industry who thinks so: This is NOT good television.
nessaassennessaassen on December 6th, 2006 01:37 am (UTC)
I noticed the "Logan messed up" language on LoveShack too, and it's so sad--it's like people slip into that phrasing without even realizing it, even when they're predisposed to sympathize with Logan. This is the power of RT and show pushing the bad boy shtick.

I still can't believe this is the dealbreaker for her. I wish I believed RT was writing a character arc for Veronica in which she learns to be a compassionae and less judgmental human being, but I guess we all learned our lesson about RT and character arcs last season.
Arabian: I love you (LV)arabian on December 6th, 2006 01:51 am (UTC)
And I just don't see how Logan is the "bad guy" here. But you're right, it's that lovely conditioning that RT has done for so many people.

I just, guh!! This is NOT going to be fun. And word to Jason Dohring and anyone else in the industry who thinks so: This is NOT good television.

Hah, RT wouldn't know a character arc if it came up and bit him on the ass, I do believe now.
polarthestral on December 6th, 2006 02:42 am (UTC)
You know I'm totally with you on this now that you've come over to the dark side of RT cynicism (you know, this is where you belong, hee). I do think it would be great if you wrote your original story as a fanfic though. Because I think I'd much prefer that to the crap we're going to get.

I can't believe the Network is letting him write this story after they know how badly the last relationship reversal went over. I really would have thought they'd intervene, but ... maybe they just don't care if they're planning on cancelling the show themselves and they're letting RT destroy himself however he sees fit.

I can't believe RT would risk destroying LoVe (via our affection for Veronica) in the scene that he has accepted probably is his last. *shakes head* Is this a 'fuck you for watching my show'? I'll serioulsy never watch something he writes again because he doesn't maintain character arcs and thus there's no fulfillment for the anticipation, no pay off at the end.

I feel empty and hollowed out but I'm clinging to Logan because I love him so, and Jason is the only actor on this show (the ONLY one) who was able to pull the fragments of a character together and make his arcs seem cohesive. He rides subtext like a bicycle. Logan is the only character that still makes sense to me, I still understand everything he does while Veronica is sometimes psychotic and random and I can't make sense of anything she does. That's because of Jason and I'll stick to him like the loyal fan I am, I'll follow him wherever he goes after this . . . and I'm so sad RT didn't treat him and his character better.

polarthestral on December 6th, 2006 02:46 am (UTC)
scene=season, sorry.
Arabian: Closerarabian on December 6th, 2006 05:40 am (UTC)
Oh, god, I know. I'll NEVER watch, read ANYTHING his name is on again, unless Jason Dohring is involved.

Just ditto, ditto, ditto to everything else, but I don't think I could do the fanfic. Way, way too painful.
Hey, wait, what's going on?: Veronica Mars - Logan/Veronicamycenae on December 6th, 2006 05:21 am (UTC)
He did Madison Sinclair. He did something wrong. That shit's nasty. She's like the Paris Hilton of VM.

I think BSG has the right idea. Just take your most fucked up couple, put them in the ring, and let them punch each other untill they can't stand and are forced to montage.
Arabian: LoVe _ Squee!!!arabian on December 6th, 2006 05:37 am (UTC)
Yeah, but he already did the Paris Hilton. All but literally -- she may have had a different name, but Caitlin Ford was SO the Paris Hilton of VM who just happened to be played by Paris Hilton (and yes, I still pity Jason enormously for that storyline). Okay, so Madison's a skank, so what? He has bad taste. That doesn't make him wrong for having a one-night stand between two, unattached consenting adults a month after he had completely broken up with his girlfriend -- who coincidentally treated him like shit.

Gah, don't want to even touch BSG. That episode finally put the nail in the coffin for me.
Hey, wait, what's going on?: Veronica Mars - Logan/Veronicamycenae on December 6th, 2006 05:50 am (UTC)
I forgot Hilton was on the show. Ah, well, that's true then. I'm not really blaming Logan, I just find it funny. I think this spoiler (if it really happens) may be the nail in the coffin for me caring about V/L. I just don't see why I should believe they belong together anymore... Bah. And I had such high hopes that this season they could finally be a cute super-sleuth couple together! *sigh*

I still say BSG's pseudo-incestual couple can beat VM's pseudo-incestual couple! I do wonder what it would be like if VM actually did an episode where the A plot was just Logan and Veronica dealing with their issues.
WeHo M.: VM - Epicafrocurl on December 6th, 2006 05:55 am (UTC)
We already talked about this, but I think that is a damn good way to put this situation.

I'm chalking this situation up to being Epic.
Arabian: Bellsarabian on December 6th, 2006 06:17 am (UTC)
Gah, I wish I had your optimism. I really, really, really do.
WeHo M.: Lyrics - Invincibleafrocurl on December 6th, 2006 06:18 am (UTC)
I think I'm just living in fucking denial, but whatever. Your idea is still bloody brilliant, if I say so myself.
Arabian: Charming Nerdarabian on December 6th, 2006 06:41 am (UTC)
Yeah, but now we know that it won't happen. Ah well. Hey, does this mean I can easily say "JenniferH is smarter than Rob Thomas."
WeHo M.: VM - Sweetnessafrocurl on December 6th, 2006 06:44 am (UTC)
Oh, I'm sure it won't happen, but remember, I'm in lalaland where I can believe whatever I want.

Ignorance is really bliss.
sweetumms33sweetumms33 on December 6th, 2006 04:18 pm (UTC)
I said this somewhere else, but I'm confused. Why Madison? Why bring her back? I'm a bit of an optimist, but I'm hoping there's a bigger arc. More importantly, looking at the women Logan's been with, Madison? She's just not in his league. Not to mention she's his best friends ex, and I think Logan learned that lesson the hardway already.

Bad bad bad. I really thought Veronica was going to work for the relationship for once. Not so much. I get him just taking her back, because that is Logan's problem, he has a thing for abusive relationships (with Hannah as the only slight exception). I don't get why it's Madison, as opposed to random girl off the street. Why bring back EVERYONE from high school? Seriously, the only way this redeems itself is if Veronica sleeps with Corny. Then I will be happy.
Arabian: Logan = Emo Boyarabian on December 7th, 2006 03:21 am (UTC)
I said this somewhere else, but I'm confused. Why Madison? Why bring her back

Because Rob needed to pull a lame-ass contrivance out of his ass?
jeannie_bean137jeannie_bean137 on December 7th, 2006 12:35 am (UTC)
*closes eyes and screams*

I told myself no spoilers...and then I clicked the link because I have no willpower...and all I saw was "Logan slept with Madison"....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Gawd if this happens on the show I'm going to be pissed.
Arabian: JD_Beautifularabian on December 7th, 2006 03:20 am (UTC)
It does happen. It does.