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22 November 2006 @ 04:50 pm
Here is where I baffle everyone re: VM  
I'm actually fairly positive with where the show is going now. Including all of the spoilers for those who know. I think it makes sense. I think the arc is important for Logan/Veronica. I won't go into details, no way to do so without spoiling the hell outta people, I'll just say this: There has GOT to be reason that everyone is turning against Veronica for the most part, there has got to be a reason that Logan actually said things to Veronica many have been saying (I am me, but you expect me to change, you're not always right, but you think you are, etc.)

Also, about the "yeah ..." after the "do you love me?" I do believe she meant that. The look in her eyes, the shimmering tears that he had to ask, that I bought. It was the "yeah" after "can we be nicer together, are we better?" that I didn't buy and I don't think we were supposed to. And that explains the final scene. Veronica said yeah then because she didn't want to fight, but she wasn't ready to just let it go, she needed more time. And that's why she didn't answer the phone, not because she doesn't love him, didn't mean that "yeah," but because she isn't ready to be "okay" yet. She needs more time to cool off and that's why she didn't answer. But Logan won't see that.

I'm in a very good place right now (character-motivation-wise) with both Logan and Veronica. The arc of this episode? I liked. Really, I'm not horribly biased against Veronica and towards Logan like it no doubt seems pretty much all of the time. I just need to understand the motivation for stupid things they do. If they do stupid stuff, I can deal, but I need to buy and understand their motivation. I understand why Logan did the stupid, bodyguard hire, it was stupid and he deserved to be smacked upside the head, but I got it. I understand why Logan didn't tell Veronica about the alibi, it was stupid, he should have told her, but I understood why he didn't. I understood why Veronica put a tracker on Logan's phone and felt no compunction in using it, it was stupid, but I understood why she did it. I understand why she didn't answer the phone, I may not have liked it, but I understood WHY she did it. It's only when I can not fathom their motives that I raise holy hell and unfortunately, I feel that Jason and the writers have given me more motivation for why Logan does his stupid stuff ... pretty much from S2 on.

I'm so excited to write up the analysis!!
 
 
 
WeHo M.: VM - LV Kiss S3afrocurl on November 22nd, 2006 10:15 pm (UTC)
I get what you're saying about where the show is going, but I still have some issues that I need to work out with Veronica (I'll blame my tired state and the fact that I'd drive 150 miles to see the epiosode on that.)

I look forward to what you have to say.
Arabian: Look of LoVearabian on November 22nd, 2006 10:40 pm (UTC)
I think it's all about the wall that Veronica built around herself when Lilly died and her whole world went haywire. She was so hurt by Lilly's death, by the town turning against her dad, by her mother's departure, by her friend's betrayal, by Duncan really being gone, by Logan turning against her that she has, without realizing it, has built this wall.

I think that when Logan asked her if she loved him, the pause and the way she said "yeah" was because it was the first time the question had been posed to her, period, not just about Logan, but about anyone since Lilly died. And there was a touch of "oh God, I DO love him! What the fuck am I going to do now?!" in how she said that "yeah." She's scared shitless.

(And I'm probably gonna steal a bunch of this for the write-up, LOL!)
WeHo M.: VM - Sweetnessafrocurl on November 22nd, 2006 10:42 pm (UTC)
I think that makes sense, but I haven't had enough time to really analyze her arc to figure out how much I buy into that.

I won't argue with you using it.

Again--I was way too tired to really process the episode, but I am dedicated.
Arabian: Bench-Kissing (cap by lapses)arabian on November 22nd, 2006 10:48 pm (UTC)
Dedicated? Yuppers, that's the key word here!
WeHo M.: VM - BK S3afrocurl on November 22nd, 2006 10:49 pm (UTC)
It is. I just don't think I should ever share this story with certain people...
Femme Fetale: [vm]Kiss Me So Sweet and Soft.slayervixen on November 22nd, 2006 10:17 pm (UTC)
Yeah whilst I agree with some of what you have to say I still have issues esp with Veronica but yeah whilst I do I understand some of her motives esp towards Logan....two stubborn bastards both of them!
Arabian: Stair-kissingarabian on November 22nd, 2006 10:45 pm (UTC)
See what I wrote above re: Veronica and that's why I'm issue-less with Veronica in this episode (I'm still PISSED about last week so much), but I have no problem with her at all this week. If anyone is more to blame for acting like an idiot, it's totally Logan. He was extremely high-handed and disrespectful of her feelings. I get why he was that way, and I'm less inclined to be pissed at him because I'm still pissed about the crap she pulled last week. But again, I get the why of everything, so I'm happy.

Femme Fetale: [vm]Star Crossed Lovers.slayervixen on November 22nd, 2006 11:01 pm (UTC)
Yeah I guess.....its better to get the why. There's not been enough of that this season.
Arabian: Stairsarabian on November 22nd, 2006 11:20 pm (UTC)
Right. As long as I can understand the motivation with both characters and it makes sense (part of why I loved WL soooooooo much), then I'm really a happy viewer. Part of my frustration with S2 so much was that I DIDN'T buy the motivation behind Veronica with Duncan. I didn't buy the bitchiness from Veronica to Logan. I didn't buy Logan even remotely falling for that twit (but was able to justify through JD's acting choices that he fell for the idea of someone caring about him like that, but it was still sketchy). So much of S2 was 'what the hell characterization' and part of why I disliked it so much. Other than the staying with Piz last week and how Veronica handled the Mercer alibi, I've pretty much got where both Logan and Veronica are coming from this season. And that's all I need.

Sigh, I don't have a matching icon for yours. Oh well.
Jordanjordle on November 22nd, 2006 10:51 pm (UTC)
I'm still not entirely sold on the "yeah - I love you" and I definitely didn't buy the "yeah - were okay." The look on her face gave away her feelings about whether they were okay or not. I am still wholeheatedly on Logan's side in all of this but I don't want to hurt Veronica like I wanted to last week!

Eventhough my beloved couple are in the process of breaking up, I feel extremely positive about VM at the moment. I have no idea why because usually when my couple breaks up I stop watching the show.

I'm very excited about next weeks episode.
Arabian: Stair-kissingarabian on November 22nd, 2006 11:04 pm (UTC)
I'm still not entirely sold on the "yeah - I love you"

Watch it again. there's a pause and in that pause her face does have a look of 'wow, I haven't had to think of the answer to that question in so long' and then a moment of dawning (accompanied by the shimmering tears) when she said "yeah" and that "yeah" was tinged with a 'oh fuck' what the hell, I do, what am I going to do now?

and I definitely didn't buy the "yeah - were okay." The look on her face gave away her feelings about whether they were okay or not.

I don't think we were supposed to buy that.

I am still wholeheatedly on Logan's side in all of this but I don't want to hurt Veronica like I wanted to last week!

I'm on both sides. I'm more on Logan's because I think the start of all of this was V's fault, but I can completely understand her in this episode and I get WHY she didn't answer the phone.

Even though my beloved couple are in the process of breaking up, I feel extremely positive about VM at the moment. I have no idea why because usually when my couple breaks up I stop watching the show.

I think because a break-up by them is the only way they are going to work long-term. Neither is dealing enough with the issues to make it work long-term right now. They're both brushing them aside. Logan is too desperate for her love and Veronica takes him for granted and so doesn't feel that type of desperation. She KNOWS that he loves her and loves her so absolutely.

I'm very excited about next weeks episode.

I think I'll be excited if I'm right about the arc through 15 or 16 and if I am, I'll be excited and I know that it will be around that mark (hopefully) that things will really begin to kick into place for LoVe. If I'm right ... positivity with VM generally bites me in the posterior BIG-TIME!
Femme Fetale: [vm]You and I Collide.slayervixen on November 22nd, 2006 11:10 pm (UTC)
I think I'll be excited if I'm right about the arc through 15 or 16 and if I am, I'll be excited and I know that it will be around that mark (hopefully) that things will really begin to kick into place for LoVe. If I'm right ... positivity with VM generally bites me in the posterior BIG-TIME!

I hope your right in this instance hun. I really do but I get the feeling you are. I'd hate for this show to end on a low note for my ship cos S4 isn't looking good at present but that could change soon enough.
Arabian: Teamworkarabian on November 22nd, 2006 11:21 pm (UTC)
It would be nice to see at least LoVe go out on a high note! :D
Femme Fetale: [vm]Shook Me Up I Guess.slayervixen on November 22nd, 2006 11:24 pm (UTC)
That's a definate. I just adore them too much it consumes me more than it should but I hope your right I'd like to think you are cos your intuition has always served this fandom well ;)
Arabian: A Fine Linearabian on November 22nd, 2006 11:26 pm (UTC)
Oh no, oh no. Remember, I was the lame-brain who was stupidly convinced that Logan/Veronica would be dating in the beginning of S2. HAH!!! But yeah, for the most part, I guess I've been more often right than not, but that's the negative stuff. I'd like to be right with the positive stuff for once. Sigh.
Femme Fetale: [vm]You Can Never Get Him Outta Your Heaslayervixen on November 22nd, 2006 11:27 pm (UTC)
I love how our icons are co-ordinating LOL! Here I am thinking I'm such a looser with my 70 or so L/V icons but its good to know I'm not alone :)

I just hope everything pans out okay, I hope Rob knows what he's doing I just don't have that much confidence in him TBH! Who would after some of the shit he's pulled right??
Arabian: Summer Cararabian on November 22nd, 2006 11:35 pm (UTC)
I love how our icons are co-ordinating LOL! Here I am thinking I'm such a looser with my 70 or so L/V icons but its good to know I'm not alone :)

I never know which one to use, so I started coordinating with Roz's icons, and then just began doing it all the time when I can. Alas, I don't have a matching icon for this one either, so I'm using a different one. Sorry.

I just hope everything pans out okay, I hope Rob knows what he's doing I just don't have that much confidence in him TBH! Who would after some of the shit he's pulled right??

Oh, right -- which is part of why I'm optimistic. He has to know that if he wants a good portion of the VM fandom following him into any other TV project, he has to right by what most want, ie. Logan and Veronica.
Jordanjordle on November 22nd, 2006 11:22 pm (UTC)
I watched the "ILY" scene a couple of times and in the precise second that she said "Yeah" I believed it but then how she answered whether they were okay or not and the subsequent not answering the phone makes me doubt her big time. I think I will probably see more of her love for Logan next week, but right now I still can't believe it wholeheartedly.

I understand where Veronica is coming from, I do, but Logan and Veronica both have issues and disregarding what she said in WL the only person trying to make this relationship work is Logan.

The last fandom I was obsessed with I got burned bad - so I agree that this positivity thing, I usually try to be negative because then you can only go up!

I refuse to believe that LoVe will not end up together - well that actually isn't true. A big part of me thinks there will be a big ole cliffhanger where they are about to get back together (Like a who's at the door kind of thing) There will be no one else involved, it will just be about them getting their shit together - I just hope it all comes together before the show ends. Logan and Veronica deserve to be happy, they have been through so much.
Arabian: Stair-kissingarabian on November 23rd, 2006 05:11 am (UTC)
I watched the "ILY" scene a couple of times and in the precise second that she said "Yeah" I believed it but then how she answered whether they were okay or not and the subsequent not answering the phone makes me doubt her big time. I think I will probably see more of her love for Logan next week, but right now I still can't believe it wholeheartedly.

But they're TWO separate things. She DOES love him. They are however NOT okay because she's still pissed that he hired a bodyguard and wants her to "change." So she needs space, she needs time to cool off. She can't just blow it off because she realizes she loves him. She's not wired that way.

She didn't answer the phone because she would have had to either fight with him again or lie to him and she didn't want to do either.

I understand where Veronica is coming from, I do, but Logan and Veronica both have issues and disregarding what she said in WL the only person trying to make this relationship work is Logan.

Right, because of what I said above. 1) Veronica has this wall around herself and 2) Logan does not believe in Veronica's love, he's always trying to make things work with them because if he doesn't, he's positive that the relationship will die. Veronica, on the other hand, knows beyond a shadow of a doubt that Logan loves her, she knows that whatever crap she pulls, he's gonna be there, so she doesn't have to fight for it, he is, she doesn't have to change, he is, she doesn't have to try to make it work because Logan loves her so much, he'll accept her, flaws and all. No, it's not a good way to have a relationship, but Logan has certainly put himself in that position.

The last fandom I was obsessed with I got burned bad - so I agree that this positivity thing, I usually try to be negative because then you can only go up!

Oh my, EVERY fandom I've been since the age of 13 has burned me. And I'm in my 30s now. I have YET to win. All of this is par for the course for me.

I refuse to believe that LoVe will not end up together - well that actually isn't true. A big part of me thinks there will be a big ole cliffhanger where they are about to get back together (Like a who's at the door kind of thing) There will be no one else involved, it will just be about them getting their shit together - I just hope it all comes together before the show ends. Logan and Veronica deserve to be happy, they have been through so much.

I really can't conceive of L/V NOT being together at the end, unless the show is pulled before episode 20, I just can't see it not happening. I really can't. Rob is an idiot, but he's not THAT much of an idiot.
(Anonymous) on November 23rd, 2006 12:44 am (UTC)
Yeah. Not only was it high-handed by Logan but she has probably been aware that someone was watching her and gone around being scared for days. He could at least have told her that he was doing this.

Still feels like Veronica just doesn't realise how vulnerable Logan is. But the reason she doesn't is probably that she feels like he have lots of advantages she doesn't. In her eyes he is the experienced one - secure in his relationships with other girls. He is also, through his fame and money, able to be unaware of the strain to get where one wants to be - collegefunds, getting a good job et.c. - a reality Veronica had to wake up to when Lily died. So to her Logan in many ways seem like the strong one - maybe she even still remembers him as the leader of the posse. She just doesn't get how wounded and insecure Logan is when it comes to love because afterall she has always known that Keith loves her and so she can believe herself worthy. I wish she would just be able to talk with him more and let him KNOW that he is loved.
Arabian: Kirsten_M-Aarabian on November 23rd, 2006 02:49 am (UTC)
Not to be boring, but pretty much, yeah, I totally agree with all of these comments. I wish I knew who you were because we totally see eye to eye on this.
tigereyes320tigereyes320 on November 23rd, 2006 04:22 am (UTC)
I like agreeing with you
I have 227 VM icons that I have to keep rotating (this is not including the newest eppys pix to make into icons)

I have to say I see the breakup coming from a mile away and I agree needs to happen. My worry is that Veronica will have no odea, once she realizes she didn't want to lose Logan, that she will have no idea what to do to get him back.

When has she had to pursue the guy?
Arabian: We got promo baby!arabian on November 23rd, 2006 04:27 am (UTC)
Re: I like agreeing with you
I don't want to say much because I have a good idea of what's coming, some is knowledge, some is speculation, but all of it definitely adds up to a rollercoaster. IF it goes the way of my spec (while I don't like the method used), this all works. But if it doesn't go the way of my spec or KB fucks it up with her biased acting, well, then we're screwed ... and I won't be happy, LOL!

Hee, I like agreeing with you too!
harper47harper47 on November 23rd, 2006 10:12 am (UTC)
I'm glad you like it and I'm glad there is a reason for all this but honestly if no one enjoys the arc then . . . . It just reminds me of Lorelei's stupid journey with Christopher this season where the end game is supposedly Luke but no one is enjoying the arc very much.

And I like your analysis of the yea but do you really think most viewers analyze a show like this? To the average viewer a different message is being given.

With that said this is the first episode that I've disliked lately so I'm okay with most of what has happened this season. I just see problems with the lead of a show being so dislikeable it makes no one want to watch her.

But anyway, I'm happy you're happy.
Arabian: JD_Beautifularabian on November 23rd, 2006 10:18 am (UTC)
Well, honestly there's nothing we can do about the arc -- so I'm choosing to be happy about what I can: At least the motivation is there this time and I can make it work in my mind. S2, I could make no sense of pretty much ANYTHING Veronica did. At least now when I'm frustrated with her, I can see where she's coming from.

Do I like the arc? No. Do I wish Rob Thomas would take his head out of his ass and write a heroine who is tough, amoral, unethical, snotty, sarcastic and yet still likeable as he did season one? Of course. Do I wish that Piz was nowhere on the horizon? Absolutely. Do I hate that Veronica no doubt broke his heart into a million little pieces in that last scene? No. But the fact of the matter is Rob Thomas spent last season giving us a Veronica who for the most part didn't appear to give a shit about Logan, by showing hints of that mixed in with genuine, albeit, confused love on her part with the possibility of actually leading somewhere may be the only way he can come up with to make her S2 attitude towards him work. I don't know -- but if he's doing what I hope he is, then it does make the Veronica/Logan arc of S1 to S2 to what we're seeing in S3 have a semblance of making sense.

Hey, this show is long past being great, in my opinion, so I got to work with what they give me.
change_of_fate: savedchange_of_fate on November 24th, 2006 04:49 am (UTC)
I just finally got time to watch this weeks episode....and I do agree with you on the whole she really loves him but they are still not okay...It does make a lot of sense that and with the upcoming spoilers....
Arabian: ATttD - Sorryarabian on November 24th, 2006 05:58 am (UTC)
Yuppers!
Moi Mobiasmoimobias on November 26th, 2006 05:18 am (UTC)
"I may not have liked it, but I understood WHY"

that perfect states my feelings for both Veronica and Logan's actions. Although I tend to always be harder on Veronica for her bad choices.

Last year I did hate her choices with Duncan but I could at least blame him for them as well...this year I can only blame her...and that is what eats away at me because I really don't want to hate/blame her but I have no other choice. Ack. The fact that I feel this strongly though is why I love the show and can't wait always to see what happens next.
Arabian: Look of LoVearabian on November 26th, 2006 06:59 am (UTC)
I think what keeps me going is a trifecta of reasons -- 1) I love the JD/KB chemistry and just want to watch it on my screen, 2) I have invested so much time, energy and love into this damn pairing and 3) I still WANT to love this show, these characters, this pairing.