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10 November 2016 @ 09:28 pm
8.03 - 'You Decided I Was Worth Saving' (The Vampire Diaries)  
I'm trying to put real world events out of my mind and just concentrate on my show. It's about my only happy place right now. But, hey, we take what we can get, right? Yeah.

So, I'm going to start at the end. These were my initial thoughts right after finishing the episode. The cockroach is dead! OMG! I mean, I like Tyler now, but HE'S FINALLY DEAD! AT LAST! And Damon did the deed! YES! But… there was this tiny niggle in the back of my mind. You see, while I am still spoiler-free, as I've said in the past when the season ends, I do read interviews with Julie Plec the first month or so after the finale. I did so again after season 07. And, well, as the upcoming season would be the last she gave her thoughts on series endings. She said that her vision is one that leaves viewers happy and killing off Tyler, especially by Damon, wouldn't do that.

So… hmm, my surety of Tyler "The Cockroach" Lockwood's death began to fade. But, but, but… Damon chomped hard for a few seconds and went back for seconds. And then the camera pulled back for an overhead shot and he was still chomping away, enjoying dinner. Tyler is just a werewolf now and we sure as heck didn't see no full moon. So, he be dead. Right? Right. On the other hand... we didn't see him dead-dead, and maybe... let's talk about that final shot again.

It was an overhead shot with Damon a'chomping away with Tyler in his arms (so romant—no, not like that). Now, here's what is key. Tyler is still kneeling himself and (ding! ding! ding!), he is still holding onto Damon's shoulders. His hands, his arms have not fallen away from Damon. Tyler has still maintained his grip on Damon therefore he's not dead yet. The werewolf/cockroach hybrid lives still.

Soooo… here's what I'm thinking. Damon is going to reconsider, pull back before it's too late and heal Tyler with his blood. Why? Well, we had that specific conversation with Sybil in place of Bonnie during pancake time in the alternate universe for a reason. It was during that time that Damon truly began to develop a friendship with someone outside of familial/romantic entanglements. And here's where you go… wait, what about Alaric? I know that the Damon/Ric friendship has taken a hit, but come on now, let's not erase their entire friendship. I'm not.

And neither is the show. Note a key word above that I used: familial. There are only sixteen episodes this season (:sniff, sniff:) and because of that it's pretty clear that they are not wasting any screen time, any scenes, any dialogue. There is no filler this year, folks. So when Ric told Stefan that Damon was the closest thing to a brother that he'd ever had that meant something. Ric has never used that term before when talking about/to Damon. It's always been friend or best friend. Damon has… he's referred to Ric as "brother," but to hear Ric say such about Damon, well, like I said, this season the writers aren't wasting lines. Everything matters. It all means something.

So back up—it was during Damon's making pancake time with Bonnie in the alternate universe that he truly began to develop a friendship with someone outside of familial and/or romantic entanglements. Yes, yes, I like to say that Bonnie is like a sister to Damon, but the show has never said that. They have, however, made it explicitly clear that their relationship is platonic only. And in this episode they made it explicitly clear that it's a two-way street for both Damon and Alaric in thinking of each other in a sibling-sense. My point here is that by using that memory-scenario to mess with, I think that Sybil made a big mistake.

Not right away, but I do think this is going to help tap into what has been building in Damon: that sense of self-worth that was missing before his friendship with Bonnie began. And which last season helped developed so that setting was very important in why I think that Damon is going to pull back from sending Tyler to doggy-heaven forever.

You see because in saying that Damon needs to break ties with those who love him by doing just one more (really bad) deed in order to send them packing to escape Hell, Sybil made a (really bad) move. Damon may have been swayed in the moment (since, you know, she's still kinda got that mind control thing going and all), but it really doesn't track. Firstly, we had Tyler pointing out to him the fact that if he killed Damon, their peeps were going to be plenty pissed. Which, OK, yeah, that's Sybil's point… but there's the thing that Sybil doesn't quite get about Damon's peeps. Is killing Tyler enough to do the trick?

Nah. Number one because he was being controlled by Sybil. OK, fine, he did it so he wouldn't go to Hell... and it was something Damon did of his own choice, but, remember this is someone who has had his mind messed with for months. Plus, he did so because he was promised in return a huge gimme: A respite from eternal damnation. So, no, it's not on Damon. It's on Sybil. Basically, we're talking the ultra-horrific, supernatural version of a forced confession after many multiple hours plus of police brutality. And, let's get real, even if that wasn't the case? Stefan would still forgive his brother. Damon killed Lexi* and Stefan forgave him. Damon killed Uncle Zach (no asterisk here) and Stefan forgave him. Killing Tyler Lockwood? Stefan would forgive him. Yeah.

* And saved Liz Forbes in the process. Ahem, Lexi could have used her vampire speed and run away to live and destroy Stefan's life in her version of "saving him" another day. Instead she chose to attack the sheriff. Just a reminder.

So Stefan would forgive him even his big brother took out his fiancée's ex-boyfriend. Sure, the others might not (though, Elena totes would, especially given the situation), but Stefan would. And that means that Sybil's plan is a bust from pretty much the get-go because if Stefan is fine with Tyler gone bye-bye at Damon's hands (teeth), then Stefan won't stop trying to save him. Ergo, Stefan will still be on Sybil's radar... and we all know that, aside from Elena, Stefan is the most important thing in the world to Damon.

Therefore it's not just about Damon trying to keep from going to Hell for eternal damnation, but saving Stefan from Sybil. So, Damon is going to realize that killing Tyler will not keep Stefan safe from Sybil. And once he sees clearly enough to realize that—which at the beginning of his little road stop lie-down, he did not (see, head-clutching in the car in the scene prior)—he's going to switch gears. He's going to realize that by killing Tyler, he won't push Stefan away. If he doesn't push Stefan way, Sybil will go after Stefan. Damon cannot let Sybil go after Stefan because the only thing more important than not spending an eternity in Hell is saving his brother from Sybil.

Once Damon gets his head wrapped around that clarity, I'm fairly certain that more clarity will follow. Like, oh, if him going to Hell is built on all of the horrible misdeeds he committed, committing even *more* horrible misdeeds doesn't really makes sense as a 'get out of jail' card. In other words, Sybil be lying to him. The only shot he could possibly have—if he even has one at all—is to continue on the path he's been on the last few years. You know, the 'Be the better man' path as prescribed by the love of his life. Be the better person he could (and would have been) had Katherine Pierce never come into his life... and, you know, made him a vampire. The reason he has committed all of the horrible misdeeds he has committed.

Yeah.

And now this brings me to something I wrote about in the season 07 finale ("Gods and Monsters") when discussing Damon's overall "let it go" arc and how I believe it was intended for the series arc between Stefan and Damon with Stefan allowing himself to let his brother go so that he could live his happy, human life with Elena, but when season 07 turned out to be the next-to-last instead of the last season probably at the mid-way point or so a recalculation was done. The "let it go" arc then became about just Damon's season 07 foibles and Stefan having to clean up the mess that Damon had made of things since Elena's sleeping beauty impersonation. I wrote about my disappointment that:

I really do not think that was the intention overall; it just didn't read that way. I truly believe it was supposed to be about the greater series arc. And by shrinking it down to just this season's arc, it failed to acknowledge the changes and better man that Damon had become in seasons 03 through 06 (especially 05 and 06). *sigh* I have to remind myself, though, take the series as a whole… take the series as a whole… it's a process, there's another season to go. They can still go there; they can still play this out, I know, I know.
Reading that back, I believe that is exactly what the show has done. Take this: "I have to remind myself, though, take the series as a whole… it's a process, there's another season to go." They may have changed the "let it go" arc to suit it for the one season, but they have now (I think) taken Damon's arc—especially the last half of the season, with the build-up of that first half—to push what is possibly going to happen now with Damon for this final season.

Damon Salvatore needs to prove, not only to the others, but himself that he can be the better man even without Elena's influence or for Elena. We had that hammered home through the first half of last season. And now, since Sybil has effectively erased Elena from Damon's mind any good he does, any good choices he makes, it's all Damon. It's not about Elena. It's not for Elena; it's not about staying in her good graces 60-70 years from now. Not a one of them can say that he's only doing this so that Elena will still love him when she wakes up.

And this makes me so very happy and goes back to my long, long ago point from season 03, episode 07's "Ghost World". I've come back to this many a time over the years as it's a theme that I think is very important about the growth of the better man that is Damon Salvatore. I wrote then:

I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA. This helped to confirm my own personal belief that Damon is not changing or becoming better FOR Elena. I think it's BECAUSE of Elena's influence. It's like what Andie said ... love changes a person, makes them better. It's like, for me, Elena has ignited that desire that has always been in Damon to be better, but until he's ready, until he wants to, it's not going to happen. Because he's not doing it for her, he's doing it for him, he's allowing himself that belief that he can be better because he's acknowledging that the desire is there. And that desire has been brought to the forefront because of his love for Elena. But it's about *his* desire to change, and *his* choice to do so.
Now any good that Damon does (if he does… and I do believe he will) will be ALL ON DAMON just as then. And this brings me to bowing down once again at the utter brilliance in which The Vampire Diaries is using Nina Dobrev's absence to actually strengthen Damon and Elena's relationship. If I'm right and they do this, it will make Damon stronger, give him a better sense of belief in himself, matched with the belief that Elena has in him… while improving his relationships with all of the other people in her life that she holds so very dear. Plus, this creates a parallel between the two of them with their individual storylines—which both enriched them as a couple in the long run.

Taking Damon away from Elena in season 06 was about erasing the triangle aspect of their love story. It was about Elena falling in love with Damon without the hesitation, without the constant "I don't knows..," without the Stefan-factor. The viewers, just like Elena, never had the joy of Elena falling in love with Damon without the triangle nonsense. Season 06's memory-erasure actually gave her (and us) that. If I'm right, taking Elena away from Damon this season is about Damon finding in himself that the better man has been there all along. Elena just drew him out, but Damon never believed that it was truly in him... he always believed that he was the darkness, and she was his light. She was the only reason why that better man ever showed up. It is only without Elena that Damon can ever truly believe that he is that better man on his own.

And just as it was only seeing Elena fall in love with Damon all over again after knowing only the worst about him, the Scooby Gang will only fully believe the truth of the matter when they see it for themselves as well. Damon doing the right thing without Elena as his touchstone will finally allow them to see the light in him that Elena has always seen.

Finally, this show loves their parallels. SO MUCH. Yes, it's been years. So many years. But… the scene between Damon and Tyler was so similar in many ways to the final scene of season 02, episode 12's "The Descent" where Damon lies on the road and Jessica comes upon him, Damon's existential crisis. What struck me then most about it was his missing being human most.

That one line […] made it crystal clear exactly what had brought this all on, everything building to this. Not so much Rose dying (or rather Damon staking her), but that everyone knew that he was upset about it, kept pushing him, it was all about that humanity showing. […] And, of course, he killed her. Of course he did. Had he not, it would have played false with the character. He's not there yet, he's not ready, but Lordy, the fact that it was so hard for him, and was so very much about proving his non-humanness is a huge sign of growth. He IS getting there. But still, oh Damon!
And here we are nearly six years later with a parallel to that scene and Damon is still trying to prove that he's the bad guy who's not worth saving… only now he's being egged on by Sybil.

What will happen? Maybe I'm completely wrong and Tyler will finally meet his end. Maybe Damon will be this show's equivalent of Raid and kill the cockroach that is Tyler Lockwood dead. Or maybe someone else will oh-so-conveniently show up and save him. Or maybe it's a hallucination. I don't know, but I think I'm right. I hope I'm right. That makes the most sense and would, frankly, be really awesome. We'll see. With this season, I have no idea… and the titles are really no help, actually.

The title of this episode is "You Decided I was Worth Saving," which any Damon (and/or Damon/Elena) fan worth their salt knows is from the Gilbert porch scene in the season 01 finale when Damon kissed "Elena" (really, Katherine—beeyotch!). It was the first (but, so not last) time that Damon bared his soul to Elena without her knowing about it and he said those beautiful words. So, yeah, everyone who knew this episode title either months, weeks, or minutes in advance figured it referenced one Mr. Damon Salvatore. Well, everyone would have been wrong.

It was for Enzo! I didn't even realize that until the day after I'd watched the episode and was just thinking back on it. But, yeah, that title referenced Enzo, and, you know, I don't love Enzo. I like him a lot, a really lot, but even not loving him, I'm all verklempt about this. He's never had ANYONE put him first; no one has ever chosen him. Enzo has always been abandoned, left behind. Even more than Damon, it's been Enzo in the corner because at least Damon did always have Stefan (even if he didn't appreciate it), and then he got Elena.

And Bonnie, my precious, beautiful Bonnie, who has never really been the ONE! for anyone, her having someone feel that way about her is really beautiful too. I'm not saying that the title refers to her at all, because Grams, Elena, Caroline, Damon, Jeremy, Matt, etc., the list goes on. Bonnie has had people believing she's so worth saving. Hello, Elena be totes lying in her Sleeping Beauty coffin right now for that reason. But Bonnie having that kind of romantic love is something new for her so that is what I found beautiful.

Also beautiful was that opening scene with Bonnie and Caroline celebrating Caroline's engagement. It was just so, so lovely. Friendship scenes FTW! We had the continuation of last week by Caroline making a concerted effort to recognize what Bonnie is going through even in the midst of her happiness. And bookending that scene of awesome was Ric taking the time to congratulate Stefan at the tail-end of the episode. Again, friendship scenes FTW! And I'm not even remotely all that hepped up about Stefan and Ric at all, but after how things were with them last season (understandably), seeing the two able to go beyond civility to actual friendship and just about bond over their love for Damon was fabulous. And, you know, just Alaric saying that Damon was the closest thing to a brother he'd ever have. My heart! Now THIS is Team!Badass feels alighting again.

Not so feeling the feels about? Sybil taking away the very memory of Elena. *sigh* Yes, yes, I said above that the rationale of it—if I'm right—but still… hearing Damon say that he doesn't even know who Elena Gilbert is… man it's just heartbreaking. And when Stefan mentioned Elena to Damon, he didn't react at all. (Will Stefan even remember that?) When Tyler told Damon to remember who he wanted at the end of it all and Damon said he didn't want any of it, ouchie! (Again, will Tyler remember that? If he's not dead.)

Still, Tyler knowing about Sybil and that Damon is under her control to some degree is a good sign because with Bonnie's last comment to Stefan about "he just gave up," we needed that, I think. Although, I can't say I completely blame Bonnie at this point. He did try and kill Enzo, and Bonnie just a few hours before. However, I'm reasonably optimistic that the lack of faith that Bonnie is showing right now—and Caroline's return to 'Damon sucks' mode will be short-lived.

The thing here is that the others aren't taking into account the difference between Enzo and Damon—which the show reminded us of again in this episode (and why I'm reasonably optimistic). Enzo had 70 years of building up a tolerance to torture and whenever Sybil did her mind-control thingie on Enzo, because of his aptitude for resisting torture that just built up his tolerance for her brand even more. Which Damon made sure to point out to the audience. (Thanks, Damon!) So Enzo resisting and fighting back wasn't because he's so much better than Damon, it's because he had years of torture-resistance in his back pocket.

Furthermore, Sybil made it clear how much power she has in this game (listing her stats, 50,000:0, give or take a few Peloponnesians). Just about anyone else would be doing about as well as Damon. Plus, Sybil took away his two biggest beacons (that didn't have the negative baggage, i.e., Stefan Salvatore), Elena and Bonnie. Therefore Bonnie saying that Damon just gave up, and Caroline being annoyed with him, etc. wasn't fair to Damon. Again, not that I don't understand where they are coming from because *they* can't understand just what Sybil is doing. And Damon did go after Caroline twice in the last few days, plus the whole Bonnie/Enzo mess earlier that day. Hopefully when Enzo is brought back to them, he'll explain it to a degree that they better understand.

Especially Stefan. "Apple sauce. Penguin." Damon wanting to tell Stefan what the situation is but literally only able to speak gibberish should be TELLING of how deeply Sybil is in his brain, DUH, STEFAN! Stefan, Stefan, Stefan. You know, when he was talking about how it was different this time with Damon (and it is, he's just not having fun even though his switch is off because he's not in control) therefore he doesn't know how to get him back it made me wonder if that is where Elena will come in. I have no clue when or how Nina Dobrev is coming back (of course, I have literally zero doubts she is), but it seems like Elena will be the key.

However, if Nina is only in a few episodes, I don't see how they drag this out too long. So they must have something planned. {shrugs} I trust this show and so far every episode has been better than the previous one this season so far. The storyline is so tight and everything has been so top-notch, I will just continue to trust. And I really like how they are writing this Sybil/siren arc so far. Like how cool was it with the Ancient Tuning Fork making the sound that could be heard not only by a Siren… dun, dun, dun but witches as well. Or at least, the little Saltzman siphoning witches. Uh huh. The plot thickens.

Speaking of… I will not lie, I was a tad worried about little Lizzie and Josie Saltzman. I didn't think they were the best little actresses (OK, I still don't), and, you know, young kids on a show like this? But I love how they are using them. Not too much, just enough to show that Caroline and Alaric are good parents, are co-parenting well together, and their little siphoning-witchy ways are being used just enough as a part of the overall supernatural story. Plus, we do get just a few cute little, non-treacly moments with them. (I'm sorry, but I really loved the "hide-and-go-seek hide" game the twins played. That was hi-larious. Bottom-line, they are just being used SO well. Not too much, just enough to be there, be believable, be that bit supernatural. And they're acting their age. Kudos, show. (Of course.)

Phew… onto randoms (and we are just about at the 4,000 word mark).

- Hah! This is what I wrote in the last episode that Chad Fiveash and James Stoteraux wrote (which was season 07, episode 20's "Kill 'Em All": Please don't bring these two back next season. They've produced one great episode, just one. The rest have been decent to, well, this. And then they come up with this one which was bloody brilliant. I loved it, loved it, loved it. The premiere was great, the second episode was better and this one was better than that one.

- And the Elena flashbacks/scenes continue. Oh my! Elena Gilbert literally has to DIE in Damon's mind for her to be taken away. Yeah. (But when Nina Dobrev left the show Elena and Damon/Elena would be all forgotten. Pfft.)

- I know she's horrible and awful and just so very wrong, but I love Sybil even though of course she must die terribly and in the worst way ever please, but Nathalie Kelley is doing such an awesome job in the role. This is just Sybil doing her job and she loves her job. I love her (hate her, but love her)!

- LIZ! We got to see my beloved Liz again! WHEE!!! (Marguerite MacIntrye, you have been missed!)

- Yes, I totally checked. In the Pilot episode, Caroline did indeed say that her and Stefan were planning a June wedding. LOL!

- This line by Bonnie cracked me up: "Aw, I'd be honored to be your... maid of honor. And not just because my main competition is in a coma till I die."

- So here's another thing that cracked me up. I wrote this in the season 07, episode 21, "Requiem For A Dream" write-up: "… Dude, how much more obvious could they have made it since season 06 began all the way through now that Damon and Bonnie are N-O-T-H-I-N-G but platonic besties? I do not know." Well, the show did. They came up with a way to make it THAT much more obvious. They literally had a character flat-out Bonnie so she could deny it very clearly, and then have the character push and spell it out so that there was ZERO doubt. Damon and Bonnie are COMPLETELY platonic.

Sybil: Did you guys ever... you know...
Bonnie: No.
Sybil: All that time, alone in a prison world. Same day on repeat. You must've done something to break up the brain-numbing monotony.
Bonnie: No.
Sybil: Seriously? Look, you are gorgeous. I can admit that, I'm not blind. And neither is Damon. Who, in case you haven't noticed, ladies, is scorching. I mean... (scoffs) ...you can't spell Damon without "damn." Strictly platonic? Really? Wow. Good for you.
I just loved, loved, LOVED the show making it 100% clear in every way possible that Damon and Bonnie have an absolutely platonic relationship. Wow, talking about taking every scintilla of ambiguity away. No gray area. None at all.

- Also, yes, Sybil... Damon is scorching. And, hah! "You can't say Damon without 'Damn!'" I agree, Sybil. I agree.

- She lies! Sybil says she can get into the girls' heads, but it would be excruciating and mess up their hair? Really? That's what is stopping her? Uh huh. So instead she would rather just spend a bunch of time talking to them, trying to figure out a way to solve her answer by talking to these two puny humans. Right. She can't control women, only men. Yuppers.

- The image of Damon and Enzo attacking each other in the face of the clock as it struck 12 was BRILLIANT! So awesome!

- You know what? The whole fight scene between Damon and Enzo with Stefan constantly inserting himself between them was awesome. Just awesome. Great stunt coordination, great job by Paul Wesley, Ian Somerhalder and Michael Malarkey (and their stunt guys—hehehe, John Gilbert is Wesley's—, but honestly, if past history is any indication, I bet the actors did most of it themselves).

- I love Georgie so much. I loved that she asked Ric for the truth about their research. He told her the truth, totes not expecting to be believed because, hello!, but she totes *knew* he was telling the truth. And then she followed him and then, boom! she saw all the crazy vampire/siren interplay. SO AWESOME!

- Even Stefan and Caroline at "odds" is totally in character and imbued with there complete and utter love for each other. Aww!

- On a shallow note, Trevino looked good with the scruff. Keep it, dude.

- That final bit with Stefan thinking that Sybil's control over Damon was gone, but then confused as to why he was still lost to them (here's a hint, Stefan, her control over Damon isn't gone maybe?), cutting to Damon driving away while pulling at his head in pain, cut to a smiling Sybil while that great song choice played over the interplay of scenes before the confrontation between Damon and Tyler was so, so awesomely done. I just have no words.

- I was going to do gifs, but this post would never have gone up if I had.

This was an excellent, excellent episode. I said it above… each episode has been better than the one before it. I am LOVING this season. The Vampire Diaries is going out with a magnificent bang.
 
 
 
Mattghidorah15 on November 11th, 2016 04:45 am (UTC)
...and, again, nothing to add. Except that I'm eager to see the smug smile wiped off Sybil's face.
Arabian: Stefan & Caroline15arabian on November 11th, 2016 06:55 am (UTC)
No thoughts on the whole Tyler thing?

Except that I'm eager to see the smug smile wiped off Sybil's face.

Aren't we all?
Matt: Ghidorahghidorah15 on November 11th, 2016 04:07 pm (UTC)
Selfishly, I want him dead. But logically, I'm guessing it was a fake-out.
Arabian: Bonnie03arabian on November 11th, 2016 04:22 pm (UTC)
LOL! I was not expecting the first part of that answer.
Mattghidorah15 on November 11th, 2016 07:06 pm (UTC)
Eheh, yeah, I got sick of Lockwolf a long time ago. No offense to the actor (though he's not that great at his job, let's be honest), but the character is thoroughly useless at this point. So I guess the one use they can find for him is to pull a fake-out and make us think Damon has passed the point of no return, only to then surprise everyone - especially Sybil - with the reveal that no, Damon stopped himself just in time. *shrug* We'll see.
Arabian: Liv & Tyler01arabian on November 13th, 2016 04:33 pm (UTC)
Yeah, Trevino has always been the weakest of the regular slew of actors they ever had on the show, and Tyler was definitely my second* least favorite of all of the regulars ever (likely because of Trevino's acting). But... I did like Tyler and Liv, and I never overall disliked the character (just some of what he did--and hello, that could be said for Elena, Damon, Stefan, Caroline, Bonnie, Jeremy, Matt, Jenna, Alaric, Klaus** --duh!--and I love them); I just never loved him.

* Vicki--least favorite by far. But she was gone after the seventh episode, so....
** I admit I love him the least of the other regulars, but I did love him. The only ones I don't love are Enzo, Tyler and Vicki. And I really, really like Enzo. I just like Tyler. I dislike Vicki.

the character is thoroughly useless at this point.

Hey, he's helping bb!Jeremy!

You already know how I feel about Damon/fake-out/past the point of no return. I just don't see it that way. Even if Damon had stopped himself in time (as I originally speculated), it still wouldn't have been about the show expecting viewers to think that Damon is too far gone. Unless you are a delusional Damon-hater, you know that is just not possible.
Mattghidorah15 on November 13th, 2016 05:33 pm (UTC)
Well, I'm certainly not a delusional Damon-hater. I guess I just let the bad vibes from some of the characters get to me.
Arabian: Bonnie08arabian on November 13th, 2016 06:14 pm (UTC)
Yeah, don't. Remember they don't know everything that we know. Just keep in mind what the show is showing us overall is the full story. The characters only have bits and pieces of the story. As little as we know as viewers the individual characters know even less. :-)
tj2013tj2013 on November 11th, 2016 11:49 am (UTC)
Thank you! You put such a positive spin on that episode and I hope you are right about Damon and his arc.

Ha - of course I thought of you and what you might say about the Tyler-scene (knowing about your aversion, heh). Hm. I'm not sure Tyler's dead, either. On second thought - no, I'm sure he will live to see the serie's end.

Ric and his comment about Damon? Just what I needed. I so hope the bromance will come alive again when Damon is back.

So Sybil has sisters, right? I always assumed she is not the only siren. How many are around Mystic Falls, I wonder.

Loved the moment Caroline was waking up, thinking Stefan was beside her and bamm - Bonnie's surprise. Very funny and touching.

RL sucks sometimes. Hope you will have more happy places soon.


Arabian: Damon07arabian on November 11th, 2016 03:25 pm (UTC)
Thank you! You put such a positive spin on that episode and I hope you are right about Damon and his arc.

It's just got to be heading somewhere positive and with only 13 episodes left, I don't see how Damon comes back to a truly happy ending after KILLING Tyler!

Ha - of course I thought of you and what you might say about the Tyler-scene (knowing about your aversion, heh).

I don't have an aversion to him anymore, though, LOL! I really don't. I just thought it was hilarious that of all the regular/majorly recurring characters that Damon could potentially have this moment with it was TYLER! Such a gift to me! Aww! Julie loves me!!!

Hm. I'm not sure Tyler's dead, either. On second thought - no, I'm sure he will live to see the series' end.

He is a werewolf/cockroach hybrid!

Ric and his comment about Damon? Just what I needed. I so hope the bromance will come alive again when Damon is back.

Me too!

So Sybil has sisters, right?

Well, I wasn't going to touch upon the preview, but yup, she does. We saw that from the preview. And in popular Greek mythology, yes, she does have sisters. I did a bit of research just now for specifics, but give me a second.

I always assumed she is not the only siren. How many are around Mystic Falls, I wonder.

Well, we saw the one in the preview, but depending on how much and how varied TVD are cribbing from history's mythology it could be two to seven. From the Wiki entry on Sirens in mythology.
    "Their number is variously reported as from two to five. In the Odyssey, Homer says nothing of their origin or names, but gives the number of the Sirens as two. Later writers mention both their names and number: some state that there were three."
The entry also includes a list of Sirens, and includes seven in total:

Aglaope or Aglaophonos or Aglaopheme ("with lambent voice") - A daughter of Achelous and Melpomene.
Leucosia - Her name was given to the island opposite to the Sirenuss cape. Her body was found on the shore of Poseidonia.
Ligeia - She was found ashore of Terina (Ancient City) in Bruttium.
Molpe - A daughter of Achelous and Melpomene.
Parthenope - Her tomb was presented in Naples and called "constraction of sirens."
Peisinoe or Peisithoe - A daughter of Achelous and Melpomene.
Thelxiope or Thelxiepeia ("eye pleasing") - A daughter of Achelous and Melpomene

Also there is this interesting point from the Siren mythology: "According to Hyginus (a Latin author, a pupil of the famous Cornelius Alexander Polyhistor, and a freedman of Caesar Augustus, so yeah, real dude who lived 64 BC – AD 17), sirens were fated to live only until the mortals who heard their songs were able to pass by them." Other post-Homeric authors believed this as well.

Loved the moment Caroline was waking up, thinking Stefan was beside her and bamm - Bonnie's surprise. Very funny and touching.

FRIENDSHIP SCENES, FTW!

Edited at 2016-11-11 03:27 pm (UTC)
tj2013tj2013 on November 11th, 2016 05:03 pm (UTC)
Oops, sorry, I watched the episode only once and I really thought the thing with Sybil's sister(s) was in the ep. I know you don't want to be spoiled.
Thanks for all the reference work, though!
Arabian: Damon04arabian on November 11th, 2016 05:34 pm (UTC)
No, no, it's fine. I watch the previews after the episode. Just not the longer ones... the longer ones give away too much info sometimes (i.e., revealing that Damon/Bonnie were in 1994). I just don't discuss the previews in my write-ups. It's all good!
(Anonymous) on November 11th, 2016 05:43 pm (UTC)
As Sybil mentioned the Peleponnesians (aka Odysseus and the argonautes) I guess the writers go with Homer's version of the sirens. So I think there will only be two of them.

I was wondering about the name though. It is interesting that TVD's siren has none of the recorded names of antiquity. And yet Sybil is the name of an ancient oracle, a woman who was immortal and was able to foretell the future. Now what is so interesting in that is, that the sirens, too, were said to be able to foretell the future, a gift that TVD's Sybil doesn't seem to have although her mindreading-abilities might be confused with foretelling? So it might be worth the effort to further research about the antique Sybil for more speculation as the writers might have very well mixed those two mythological creatures together (I hope I make sense?).

What also piqued my curiosity was that according to legend there were only two men, who heard the sirens's song and lived: One was of course Odysseus who was restricted from following the sirens's luring voices by being bound by ropes. The other man was Orpheus and he survived because, when the sirens started singing, he just started playing his lyre and was therefore unable to hear them. Now a pitchfork from hell isn't a lyre but the similarity in this with TVD's tuning fork outdoing the siren... Also Orpheus of course was in the Underworld once and his tunes were able to "defeat" the God of the Undeworld.

As to the "how to defeat a siren"-part: When a man managed to pass the siren without being drawn in by her voice and song, she would commit suicide for the shame of loosing. So if one of our guys, Damon or Enzo, were able to free themselves of Sybil's control, maybe that could already be enough to get rid of her?

Another thing I kept wondering about is, if TVD really follows myth and Bonnie read the Odyssee how come no one's come up with using earplugs against Sybil's influence yet? After all it worked just fine for the argonautes?

But my wild guess still is that the way to really defeat Sybil will be for Damon or Enzo or both of them to free themselves from Sybil's grip. But I could be wrong, who knows with this show it's never that simple, now is it? (But Sybil's 50.000:0 comment (especially the zero-part) seemed really conspicous to me.)
(Anonymous) on November 11th, 2016 10:38 pm (UTC)
Wow, such great theories.
I don't pretend to have such knowledge of Greek mythology but I do know Damon. Damon is fighting in the best way he can and he will prevail. He will eventually be able to resist the Sirens' song and I hope Enzo will too.
Arabian: Damon12arabian on November 13th, 2016 12:18 am (UTC)
Well, with Enzo I think that he's pretty much done. He just needs to flip his humanity. We saw that he was able to resist her because of his years of resisting torture. It's Damon who's always been control (except when it came to his love for Katherine, and then Elena) that is having the hard time. But yeah, he'll prevail. No doubt.
Arabian: Bonnie06arabian on November 13th, 2016 12:17 am (UTC)
Well, responding after the episode has aired and obviously, yes, they are cribbing mostly from Homer. Can't say that I didn't totally expect that (what with the reference to the Odyssey).

Another thing I kept wondering about is, if TVD really follows myth and Bonnie read the Odyssee how come no one's come up with using earplugs against Sybil's influence yet?

Because it's after the fact right now. Damon and Enzo were already captured by her. And then have her now and the Tuning Fork so there is no need.

But my wild guess still is that the way to really defeat Sybil will be for Damon or Enzo or both of them to free themselves from Sybil's grip.

I don't think it's wild, I think it makes sense. I think that may be the way to take her down. By breaking free, they will be defeating her.

I don't think the Sybil/forecaster connection is supposed to be there. We've seen nothing to indicate she can see the future at all. I think they just pulled that name out. But... with this show, you don't know. I think it would have come up already though. :shrugs:
Bogwitchbogwitch on November 19th, 2016 10:54 pm (UTC)
At this point there isn't an awful lot more I can say about this one, other than that I enjoyed it.

(I wasn't expecting Tyler to be dead either, even though at this point he's more use dead than alive).
Arabian: Damon04arabian on November 23rd, 2016 02:01 am (UTC)
Glad to know I wasn't the only one who didn't quite expect Tyler to be dead-dead.

I enjoyed it too; this one is my favorite of the season so far.
Florencia: DE (The Wreck of Our Hearts)florencia7 on March 19th, 2017 04:23 pm (UTC)
RE: 8x03
"I'm trying to put real world events out of my mind and just concentrate on my show." - I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope things got much, much better since then.

"She said that her vision is one that leaves viewers happy and killing off Tyler, especially by Damon, wouldn't do that." - It seems that Julie had a specific group of viewers in mind ;) And I think she changed her description of the ending later on from happy to "satisfying" which does seem to be a better word to describe it.

"Tyler has still maintained his grip on Damon therefore he's not dead yet." - I have to admit, for once I totally hoped Tyler would make it through lol Alas, he didn't and I'm really curious what is your interpretation of why he died. I mean not in relation to Damon's storyline, but to his own. Why did the show decided it was his time to go?

"but there's the thing that Sybil doesn't quite get about Damon's peeps. Is killing Tyler enough to do the trick?" - Exactly!

"Nah. Number one because he was being controlled by Sybil." - I'd say it was probably the first and only instance (or perhaps just the most significant one if I'm forgetting some others) when everyone seemed to take that into consideration. In the past they always did so with Stefan, but with Damon somehow it mattered less if he had his emotions off, was being manipulated, blackmailed, etc. So it was surprising in a positive way that this time around Tyler's death got eventually less coverage than Enzo's.

"Damon Salvatore needs to prove, not only to the others, but himself that he can be the better man even without Elena's influence or for Elena." - I think they both succeeded and didn't succeed in this regard, because Elena's presence in Damon's mind became stronger and stronger as the season progressed, but it seemed to become more of a catalyst than *the* driving force, so I think the final effect was as you predicted it.

"taking Elena away from Damon this season is about Damon finding in himself that the better man has been there all along." - And that is my favorite way of looking at it, although I think the emphasis kind of shifted toward the "we are both" interpretation.

"But… the scene between Damon and Tyler was so similar in many ways to the final scene of season 02, episode 12's "The Descent" where Damon lies on the road and Jessica comes upon him, Damon's existential crisis. What struck me then most about it was his missing being human most." - I think they used that parallel to surprise us with Damon actually killing Tyler, because him not killing Tyler was the more expected outcome, because it would have contrasted better with that 2x12 scene. But I think the point they were trying to make was that as long as Damon was a vampire, he would keep making the same mistakes, falling into the same traps and patterns, whether it would be his fault or not really his fault. Which might have played a part in Stefan's final sacrifice, that realization that there was no truly breaking free of all these without becoming human.

"Well, everyone would have been wrong." - Ha, maybe I'm crazy, but I think the title can be seen as referring to... Tyler lol Or more precisely to Tyler's speech to Damon which included telling him that perhaps this night would be a wake up call that will make both of their lives mean something.

Having said that, I like the idea of the title referring to Enzo because it totally makes sense.

"Also beautiful was that opening scene with Bonnie and Caroline celebrating Caroline's engagement." - Yes, I loved this scene too.

“and, you know, young kids on a show like this?” - That was the aspect I was worried about too. I just didn't think it'd work. But like you said, they were being used so well that it did work.

“And then they come up with this one which was bloody brilliant.” - Ha, I knew you'd come to like them! ;)

“This line by Bonnie cracked me up: "Aw, I'd be honored to be your... maid of honor. And not just because my main competition is in a coma till I die."” - lol Yes, this line was great! BTW How do you think Elena got out of a similar dilemma??

“The Vampire Diaries is going out with a magnificent bang.” - That's for sure! ♥
Arabian: Damon08arabian on May 2nd, 2017 02:47 am (UTC)
1 of 2
"I'm trying to put real world events out of my mind and just concentrate on my show." - I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope things got much, much better since then.

Nope, world events still fucking things up. This episode took place the Tuesday after the US Presidential election. It's still surreal and unbelievable.

"She said that her vision is one that leaves viewers happy and killing off Tyler, especially by Damon, wouldn't do that." - It seems that Julie had a specific group of viewers in mind ;) And I think she changed her description of the ending later on from happy to "satisfying" which does seem to be a better word to describe it.

Yeah, I'm thinking that's the case. Because, really, I think the only viewers who walked away from that finale 100% happy were reasonable Damon/Elena fans, Caroline/Klaus fans, Matt fans, and Bonnie fans who didn't particularly ship her with anyone but happiness and awesome power.

I'm really curious what is your interpretation of why he died. I mean not in relation to Damon's storyline, but to his own. Why did the show decided it was his time to go?

Honestly, I don't think it was about Tyler at all. I don't know, maybe because Kevin Williamson has a killing wish? I don't know honestly. He wanted Damon to kill Jeremy in the season 02 premiere, that was his big shocker moment. He was part of this season; I'd bet dollars to donuts, it was his idea to kill off some main characters and one of them should be someone from the core group from season 01. Tyler was the most expendable. OK, seriously, if I'm going to think of storyline reasons, I can think of two. One, it gave Matt a reason to go along with Ric's 'Kill Damon' plan. I can't see anything else that would have pushed Matt to do it and it was Damon doing such that created the chasm between Matt and Damon. Yes, he "hated" Damon, but he didn't really. He always did what Damon wanted him to do. He protected Damon; he was there for him. But after this all happened, Damon had to reach out to Matt. And it opened the door to all that had happened with Vicki. It made Damon see Matt as someone he had to reach out to and make amends to. Secondly, by killing Tyler, Damon took a step too far to the others and this made them believe that he was too far gone under the spell of Sybil. He was beyond saving and so they essentially wrote him off (as she wanted). I didn't think it would be enough, but it was that first giant step that led to them believing it.

"Number one because he was being controlled by Sybil." - I'd say it was probably the first and only instance (or perhaps just the most significant one if I'm forgetting some others) when everyone seemed to take that into consideration.

You are. LOL! Pretty much EVERYTHING that Damon did throughout the summer--and he did a LOT of bad things--were taken into consideration that they were not Damon's fault. Stefan has tried to excuse Damon's actions a lot in the past. As had Elena, and even Ric on occasion. Bonnie has as well. So, yeah, you're wearing your Damon-contacts.

In the past they always did so with Stefan

Nope, again, go back to after Damon "died." They all, even Caroline, turned on Stefan and treated him like crap even though that boy was BEYOND suffering. Plus, Matt (and Jeremy at times) have not been team!Stefan. And Bonnie was NOT happy with Stefan for getting Damon stuck in the Hell stone.

Edited at 2017-05-02 11:35 pm (UTC)
Florencia: DE (The Wreck of Our Hearts)florencia7 on May 12th, 2017 12:12 pm (UTC)
Re: 1 of 2
"This episode took place the Tuesday after the US Presidential election. It's still surreal and unbelievable."

KCaLD.png


"I think the only viewers who walked away from that finale 100% happy were reasonable Damon/Elena fans, Caroline/Klaus fans, Matt fans, and Bonnie fans who didn't particularly ship her with anyone but happiness and awesome power." - Exactly!

"Honestly, I don't think it was about Tyler at all." - Wonderful analysis. And you're probably right on all accounts. Good points.

"You are. LOL!" - I *was* thinking this might be the case ^^

"Nope, again, go back to after Damon "died." They all, even Caroline, turned on Stefan" - Ahhh You're right. For *some* reason my memory can be really selective when it comes to these things lol
Arabian: Stefan04arabian on May 14th, 2017 05:22 pm (UTC)
Re: 1 of 2
Sorry, a meme isn't enough, not even remotely enough, to make up for the horror of what is going on here. Every day is literally a new disaster and an attack on our liberties.

"Nope, again, go back to after Damon "died." They all, even Caroline, turned on Stefan" - Ahhh You're right. For *some* reason my memory can be really selective when it comes to these things lol

Maybe the rewatch will help you love Stefan more. :D

Florencia: DE (The Wreck of Our Hearts)florencia7 on May 28th, 2017 04:08 pm (UTC)
Re: 1 of 2
"Maybe the rewatch will help you love Stefan more." - I'm fairly certain it will!
Arabian: Damon17arabian on May 2nd, 2017 02:48 am (UTC)
2 of 2
I think they used that parallel to surprise us with Damon actually killing Tyler, because him not killing Tyler was the more expected outcome, because it would have contrasted better with that 2x12 scene. But I think the point they were trying to make was that as long as Damon was a vampire, he would keep making the same mistakes, falling into the same traps and patterns, whether it would be his fault or not really his fault. Which might have played a part in Stefan's final sacrifice, that realization that there was no truly breaking free of all these without becoming human.

Good point... except I don't agree because that scene, I think, wasn't about Stefan at all. And I don't even think it was about Damon's vampire related issues--and how he'll always fall back into that because he is a vampire thus why I don't think it related to Stefan. I think Tyler was used specifically because of WHO Tyler Lockwood is. He is someone who was plagued by his own daddy issues (OH MY GOD! I AM JUST REALIZING THIS AS I'M RESPONDING TO THIS! THIS IS WHY TYLER DIED! THIS IS WHY IT WAS TYLER!). This is someone who was plagued by his own self-esteem issues but hid them under a guise of cockiness. This is someone who couldn't get a handle on who he was and fought against anyone trying to make him be anyone or anything trying to control him because it reminded him of his father--which is what his werewolf gene and Klaus was all about. So when Tyler broke free from Klaus, and learned to control his wolf-self and found himself, he found his self-esteem. He no longer needed to be controlled. Did he still have issues? Was he still a bit of a hothead and have issues? Yes, but he's also a guy in his early 20's who is literally a werewolf. But the point is that he understands where Damon is coming from. He understands what it is like to be controlled by something and to need to break free from that. So having Tyler tell him that if have to die so that you can break free from being a Siren's bitch, so be it. THAT WAS THE POINT! Damon needed to hear that. And, sadly, Tyler needed to die for that to sink in to Damon. It took time, but that was actually the turning point for Damon because it was after he did that to Tyler, and was captured by the others, and Sybil freed him that Damon started THINKING again. He started being DAMON SALVATORE again. He stopped being Sybil's bitch!

"Well, everyone would have been wrong." - Ha, maybe I'm crazy, but I think the title can be seen as referring to... Tyler lol Or more precisely to Tyler's speech to Damon which included telling him that perhaps this night would be a wake up call that will make both of their lives mean something.

I still think the title refers to Enzo, LOL!, but I do think that, yes, Tyler's speech was a wake-up call to Damon but Tyler had to die (or rather be killed by Damon) for it to wake him up.

Ha, I knew you'd come to like them! ;)

It doesn't take away from how subpar I found some of their earlier efforts, I'm sorry to say. But, yes, they did improve.
Florencia: DE (I Promise You)florencia7 on May 12th, 2017 02:45 pm (UTC)
Re: 2 of 2
"I AM JUST REALIZING THIS AS I'M RESPONDING TO THIS! THIS IS WHY TYLER DIED! THIS IS WHY IT WAS TYLER!" - AHHHHH!!!! This is AWESOME!!! Yes! Yes! It makes so much more sense now!!! I love it. Thank you!!!
Arabian: Betty01 - Yesarabian on May 14th, 2017 05:23 pm (UTC)
Re: 2 of 2
I know, right?!??! Gah, I love this show and this is why I love so much when I get thinky-thoughts comments. So much. (And yes this will so go in the rewatch post.)