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18 October 2012 @ 07:44 am
Some TVD-Stefan/Elena-related thoughts + my willingness to let bygones be bygones...  
because you all know that I'm just so this show's bitch!

First off... Happy Vampire Diaries day!

Now, I've complained long and hard about Elena not calling Stefan out on that shiz he pulled in "Our Town," when he kidnapped her, force-fed her his blood and threatened to drive her off of the bridge where her parents died and kill her/turn her into a vampire. BUT... something struck me today. Stefan *DID* have his humanity switch off. Sure, it was his choice, but it was Damon's to keep his off for so long and I'm constantly defending his early season 01 actions by saying but, but, but ... his humanity switch was off. So it's not fair of me to expect Elena to hold Stefan to a different standard here. His switch was off. And it was actually those horrible actions that made him turn his switch back on. So, I'm over that.

With that said, I will personally forever hold Stefan accountable (yes, I realize he's a fictional character, ya'll) and be peeved that Elena will likely NEVER call him out regarding the pointless/cruel killing of Andie. Elena knows that Stefan killed her; she also knows that Stefan did so when his switch wasn't off. She also has to have an idea of how cruel it was considering how Andie's death was reported. So, yeah, that I'm still a tad frustrated about, but it's not like I haven't discussed getting the whole tribal mentality thing this gang has going on so this was (ironically since Andie died and Elena didn't) always less bothersome to me than the events of "Our Town." So while I may not like it, the tunnel vision/tribal mentality that Elena exists in DOES make her acceptance (or rather the ignoring) of Andie's death more palatable.

Man, this show. Twisted morals, dude.
 
 
 
bitcheesquared: pic#65968164bitcheesquared on October 18th, 2012 06:17 pm (UTC)
Fucking A.. (Scuse my french) I am so glad you mentioned that...
It's always bugged me that nobody seemed to give a crap about Andie. Well except for Damon. Damon toldl her to get out when he knew he was going to lose it (Not his normal MO when he get's angry) and he looked pretty upset when Stefan killed her, so I think he did care on some level.
It really pisses me off, that Elena seems to hold every bad thing Damon did against him; while his switch was flipped, but when it comes to Stefan she doesn't seem to care either way.
Andie was someone Elena knew personally and Stefan killed her just to send his brother a message. Seriously, WTF. Wasn't he the one berating Damon over the fact that she was a person and not just a blood bag?
It occurs to me, that Stefan is a big fat liar... The only reason he could have had to pick Andie, was that Damon cared for her enough for the message to hit home. So was his little speech for Elena's benefit, or just him being all self righteous as usual.
Or perhaps he didn't like the thought of Damon being happy, not eating his heart out over something that was his, after all, he didn't seem to have too big a problem with sharing Katherine, and he wasn't the one who pined for 145 years.
Sorry, got side tracked there. LOL The season premiere still has me steaming.
Anyway, Elena is supposed to be this good, moral and loving person, why the hell would she choose to be with a guy, that could kill his brothers girlfriend for such a shitty reason. And don't even get me started on the whole, she told me to save Matt thing.
Ugh! I love my Delena, but I'm seriously starting to think; even with as much of an asshole as Damon can be, that he deserves better than her.
The scenes between Andie and Damon, always made me think that she was much more aware of his compulsion than his normal victims were, that her being with him was her decision, despite his compulsion, not because of it. Anyway, Elena was around them enough to see the differences between Andie and Caroline, maybe the reason she never called Stefan on Andie's murder... was because she was glad she was gone, glad that Damon no longer had his distraction. Hmm... I might have to write a bitter little fic about that. LOL
At this point, I'm sorry they killed her off, I'd rather see Damon with her, at least Andie would have chosen him and not looked twice at Stefan.
So rant over, I'm off to have a stiff drink.
Arabian: Damon08arabian on October 18th, 2012 09:42 pm (UTC)
that Elena seems to hold every bad thing Damon did against him; while his switch was flipped, but when it comes to Stefan she doesn't seem to care either way.

Sorry, disagreed. Elena does NOT hold it against Damon. In fact, she not only doesn't hold those things against him, she doesn't hold the shitty stuff he does when his switch IS on against him. Remember 1.18 -- Damon made a snarky comment about how good Caroline tasted, obviously alluding to when they dated when his switch was off and we all know (and ELENA knows) how horribly he treated Caroline. Elena's response was to grin. She doesn't hold stuff against him, same as Stefan. She held him snapping her brother's neck against him, but that's pretty much the only thing and she even got over that. And again, he snapped her brother's neck.

As for Stefan being a liar ... of course. That's been obvious from day one in retrospect.

Anyway, Elena is supposed to be this good, moral and loving person, why the hell would she choose to be with a guy, that could kill his brothers girlfriend for such a shitty reason.

Elena fan here, so I'm going to defend her. On the same token, Elena is supposed to be this good, moral and loving person, why the hell would she choose to be with a guy that when pissed off kills her brother? Or threatens to kill her friends or their parents? Neither Damon or Stefan are saints, and part of why I actually like the dirtying up of Stefan is now no one can say that Elena can't be with Damon because of the bad stuff he's done, because they both have.

, I'm sorry they killed her off, I'd rather see Damon with her, at least Andie would have chosen him and not looked twice at Stefan.

I'm not at all. I'm glad she's gone; I just dearly wish that Stefan had suffered SOME consequence for the cruel, pointless way he killed her. And I certainly wouldn't want to see Damon with Andie or anyone but Elena. As for Andie, sure she would have chosen Damon -- he compelled her to always choose him, love him, think he's the bestest ever. While, yes, Damon did care about Andie, there was nothing real about what they shared. What Damon and Elena share? IS real, and deep and is leading somewhere. I'm not just a die-hard Damon, I'm a die-hard Elena fan *AND* die-hard Damon/Elena fan.

Enjoy your drink. :)
Bogwitch: TVD - Carolinebogwitch on October 18th, 2012 11:00 pm (UTC)
I disagree about Elena not holding anything against Damon to a degree, I think she does judge him by some of his actions, the 'lashing out' she's using as an excuse for keeping him at arm's length for example. Hey, I like Elena as a character, but I have to question her judgement and morals as a person over keeping either of the Salvatores around. Though long may she enterain me with her rather narrow world view.
Arabian: Caroline06arabian on October 18th, 2012 11:58 pm (UTC)
Agreed, but that's based on his general assy-attitude, LOL! But to say that it's black and white here in the difference between Stefan and Damon isn't true.
bitcheesquared: pic#65968164bitcheesquared on October 19th, 2012 10:44 am (UTC)
Totally get what you are saying, I think I should have phrased that first part better. Elena expects him to screw up, her little speech in 3.19 illustrates that. the difference is He does shitty stuff, she tells him she needs time... Stefan does shitty stuff, she forgives him faster than the speed of light. Still, the comments I left are mostly due to season premiere and my bitterness over Damon's pain.
I am actually a total Delena fan myself, I want Damon to get the person he deserves and Elena to have someone who will never leave her. My TVD fic is all about the Delena, except for one very short bitter one I wrote, when I was still pissed over the 'I never un-fell for him' scene.
I still believe that Andie wasn't compelled to like him, just to not be scared of him. C'mon she had the hots from the moment they met... But no, I wouldn't want him to be with anyone apart from Elena, I'm just jacked off with her continuing blindness when it comes to Stefan. But I'll probably forgive her by the next episode. LOL
Elena and Damon fit, and that's without being a couple, I live to see them actually together.
Cheers
Arabian: Elena11arabian on October 29th, 2012 03:29 am (UTC)
He does shitty stuff, she tells him she needs time... Stefan does shitty stuff, she forgives him faster than the speed of light.

But that makes sense. Whether we like it or not, Stefan IS her boyfriend. He is the one she knowingly loves. Right now Damon is the question mark. So I'm fine with that. Right now.

I do believe it will change, but right now, it makes perfect sense that Elena is going to forgive Stefan, turn a blind eye because of their relationship. But that's not necessarily a good thing, you know. There's also the fact that she forgives him so easily because she doesn't want to deal with any negative stuff with Stefan because that messes up her somewhat-pretend image of the guy she fell in love with. So all in all, it equals out to good for D/E in my book.
eolivet on October 18th, 2012 06:34 pm (UTC)
I admit, I always duck my head in embarrassment when you bring this up, because I experience the other side of it over in DA. It's the rallying cry of the Mary/Carlisle shippers -- the fact that Matthew has blamed Mary for things and put his principles above her feelings and was ready to abandon her entirely for the sake of honor and yet...the show holds him up as a paragon of virtue, and Mary instantly forgives him for everything?! Well...yes. She loves him. Love is irrational and excuses many faults.

I know it's not exactly the same thing (and Stefan's crimes are FAR WORSE), but I'm just glad to see this explanation here. :D In a way, it helps me be at peace with both TVD and DA. Because it's true, if you use the same justification for Damon, then we can grudgingly admit Stefan deserves the same treatment. Even though he so doesn't. ;p

Anyway, thanks as always for your insights and for making me think. :D
Arabian: Ian & Nina15arabian on October 18th, 2012 09:43 pm (UTC)
Aww, I'm glad I could help not only with this, but also with DA for you. :D
heartsewnsleeve on October 29th, 2012 12:54 am (UTC)
I stumbled on your journal while browsing the Elena Gilbert tag! :)

Elena's flaws are what make me love her as a character. She's very helpless with her emotions; they rule her. We see it with her choices. I think one of the best examples is her asking Damon to compel Jeremy. Do I believe that was wrong? No doubt. However I also empathize with why she did it. So yes, I would say Elena is a good person, but her emotions overrule her and influence her decisions. Is it causes her to be in reckless and dangerous situations (going to the lake to search for Stefan in 3x3, comes to mind) but her intentions are meant well.

I find it refreshing that the main "heroine" isn't painted perfectly or flawlessly. Elena is very flawed, and at times, very wrong in her choices. She doesn't make good choices or choices that I would personally take. For instance, I'd never deal with Stefan after he kidnapped me and brought me to the bridge that my parents died at, but she finds a way to forgive him. I admire that because I could never be so warming. Basically, I love Elena.. but I often wonder and befuddled by her choices, but I find them endearing because her intentions are meant well.

For the D/E spectrum (I am a very big Delena fan), I think this is what also makes their relationship so wonderful. Elena's big heart is what sees the good in Damon and brings it out. She's seen him at his worst , and still sees good in him. I think her ability to love so longingly and fully is what makes D/E so wonderful. Her virtue/flaw of forgiveness and unconditional is a big aspect of why I ship it.

Edited at 2012-10-29 01:43 am (UTC)
Arabian: Elena10arabian on October 29th, 2012 03:26 am (UTC)
Aww, I love me some Elena Gilbert! Always nice to find other fans of the character (and not just fans of Damon who put up with Elena because Damon lurves her).

I really don't have anything to add to this because I pretty much agree with every word. Elena is awesome and doesn't get enough love for her very real, three-dimensional, flawed, yet flawless ways.
heartsewnsleeve on October 29th, 2012 03:45 am (UTC)
Yes, I agree. I hate the hate she gets... especially from the "Damon luver brigade" who hate on her constantly for not falling into his arms. It completely confuses me because the build up is so good and what makes you ship the relationship harder, you know? :)

Yes agreed! Are you a fan of Bonnie and Caroline too?
Arabian: Elena-Caroline & Bonnie02arabian on October 29th, 2012 05:51 am (UTC)
I hate the hate she gets... especially from the "Damon luver brigade" who hate on her constantly for not falling into his arms. It completely confuses me because the build up is so good and what makes you ship the relationship harder, you know? :)

This, this, this, and this!!!

Are you a fan of Bonnie and Caroline too?

I love all of the series regular characters except for Tyler. (I want him to die, pleeze now, go kthanxbai!) My favorite characters -- including all of the rest of the regulars are:

01. Damon
02. Elena
03. Rebekah
04. Stefan
05. Matt
06. Caroline - although, her boyzone-non-stopness has dropped her on my list :( She used to be number 03! But, ugh, hanging with Tyler has really dampened my enjoyment of her character. I'm SO bored in their scenes.
07. Katherine - so low because we see her so rarely now.
08. Bonnie
09. Jeremy
10. Elijah
11. Liz
12. Klaus

ETA: Let me point out that yes, Bonnie is #8, but I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE Bonnie. I just LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the other characters more. I really, really love the characters on this show!

Relationship-wise, these are my faves --

01. Damon/Elena
02. Damon/Stefan
03. Stefan/Caroline
04. Elijah/Katherine
05. Matt/Rebekah
06. Damon/Jeremy
07. Elena/Bonnie/Caroline
08. Bonnie/Jeremy
09. Damon/Matt
10. Damon/Liz
11. Stefan/Rebekah
12. Damon/Bonnie -- as they are now, that prickly partnership that really started in 3.21

Yes, yes, Damon is so my favorite character, that's not even in question, LOL!

Edited at 2012-10-29 05:52 am (UTC)
heartsewnsleeve on October 30th, 2012 08:41 pm (UTC)
I friended you because I love your thoughts and we share a lot of them. I hope that's okay! :)

We have the same favorites! Alaric is definitely on my favorite list though! It's actually hard for me to make up a top list because I love the characters so much... besides, Tyler. YES YES YES to your dislike of Tyler! He is so annoying. I just want to shriek whenever he is on my screen. His only redeeming quality to me is when his shirt is off. LMAO.

I love Bonnie too! I hate how fandom treats her. Actually, the way the majority of the TVD fandom treats all of the females characters is really terrible to me. I really love Stefan and Damon (especially) but their way their "luvers brigade" hates on anyone who doesn't fall into their arms drives me crazy!

The only character that I've never been crazy about is Vicky. I don't really know why. She just wasn't a character that I really enjoyed.

Yes, to the Bonnie/Jeremy relationship. I loved how they understood one another. I also liked the Jeremy/Anna relationship, but in the end, I prefer Jeremy/Bonnie.

I also like Katherine/Stefan. I'm starting to get swayed to Caroline/Klaus but I've been on board with Caroline/Stefan since she was turned. I ship Caroline/anyone but Tyler tbh. I've actually a lot of the relationships on the shows (including the crack!ships) which is surprising for me. I think the only thing that I am staunch anti is Caroline/Tyler and Elena/Stefan. I can tolerate and enjoy some parts of Stelena unlike Caroline/Tyler.

And yes, Bonnie/Caroline/Elena is my BFF OTP! I love their friendships. I wish we got more of those three. I need more BFF love in my life!

Edited at 2012-10-30 08:43 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Elena-Caroline & Bonnie01arabian on October 30th, 2012 10:01 pm (UTC)
OMG! We are like mind-twins here!!!

Alaric is definitely on my favorite list though!

I didn't include him (or Pearl) because they're dead. But I guess if we start to see more appearances of Ghost!Alaric, I can put him back on the list.

His only redeeming quality to me is when his shirt is off.

Honestly, I'm so done with his character that doesn't even work for me.

I can NOT understand how fandom treats Bonnie. Especially this whole ridiculous - she's only a plot point when they need a witch! First of all, did any of those complainers ever think that they need a witch so often... SO THEY CAN USE BONNIE on the show?! And secondly, after Damon, Elena (and arguably) Stefan, Bonnie has had the most character growth/interaction. I actually wrote up a whole post about it. (Actually, actually... if you're interested I have a post with links to all of my main TVD posts here

The only character that I've never been crazy about is Vicki

ME TOO!

I was OK with Jeremy/Anna, but I love Jeremy/Bonnie.

I also like Katherine/Stefan. I'm starting to get swayed to Caroline/Klaus but I've been on board with Caroline/Stefan since she was turned. I ship Caroline/anyone but Tyler tbh. I've actually a lot of the relationships on the shows (including the crack!ships) which is surprising for me. I think the only thing that I am staunch anti is Caroline/Tyler and Elena/Stefan. I can tolerate and enjoy some parts of Stelena unlike Caroline/Tyler.

This is my brain here.
heartsewnsleeve on October 30th, 2012 10:41 pm (UTC)
OMG, I was just thinking that. Mind twins are the best! ;D

Even though he's dead, he's still on my list. I'm still not over his death. His relationship with Elena, with Jeremy, and Damon are some of my favorites. Ooh, yes, Pearl! I wish she didn't die (we should totally trade Tyler for Pearl).

The chiseled ab affect is starting to wear thin with me too. I REALLY don't get how he has so many people who love him and his relationship Caroline. And, I rarely meet people who dislike him as much as I do, so I am forced to deal with "Caroline is so mean to Tyler! WHAT A BEEP" or "I LOVE TYLER SO MUCH!" constantly. I'm all about people loving whatever they want but Tyler gets under my skin... and not in a good Damon Salvatore type of way. ;)

I just hate the way she's treated. Is Bonnie perfect? No. No character on this show is. They are all flawed. Bonnie constantly sacrifices herself. When Caroline said, "she is the one who is always hurt", I actually cried because it's so true. And what I love about Bonnie is that she never complains, she never tells Elena to go away, or that is she angry. She takes it. The one time that she told Elena she needed space (after her mother was turned from Damon) - fandom started saying what a horrible friend she was. Really? Bonnie risks everything for her loved ones.

I also hate how much flack Bonnie gets for "not loving the Salvatore bros". Does everyone forget what they've done to her? What vampires in general have done to her? She's constantly abused physically and emotionally. There's even hate "I hate Bonnie Bennett" confession blogs and blogs dedicated to how much people hate her.

Completely agreed about the character growth. I am going to read those after I type back this comment! I'm excited to read them! :)

I'm so happy we share the same brain. ;D