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12 May 2012 @ 12:15 pm
yeah, another one  
Just so ya'll know ...

I'm actually trying to get past my issues re: Elena never choosing/being with Damon as a vampire. That's my main issue with regards to her not choosing Damon. I still have issues (and always will) with the lack of consequences for Stefan, and the complete romanticized bullshit rose-colored glasses with which the Stefan/Elena relationship is portrayed. As I've said, I'm not giving up on the show, I'm not walking away. I love the show overall too much to do that. What I've done, what has happened is that *my* rose-colored glasses are off. I no longer have this show on a pedestal; I'll no longer give them the benefit of the doubt.

There was too much sloppy, disconnected writing in the second half of the season. Too much tell without show, too much ridiculous, so-dropped-the-ball writing with regard to Stefan. Too much non-stop crapping on Damon. But I'm trying to get back to a better place with the show overall, and accept that it's simply not the great television I thought it was, and realize that it's just a good, sometimes great show that has a blind spot when it comes to Stefan, Stefan/Elena and the unfair unbalance that results from that blindness that is directed towards Damon, and Damon/Elena. And that will never change.

ETA: This is a really good take on Damon/Elena after season 03 that helped me. It might help some of you. I'm not totally there yet, but I'm thinking of writing an episode discussion post after all ... so we'll see.
 
 
 
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Playful Katbutterfly on May 12th, 2012 04:57 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I'm trying to decide if I can get past Stefan's character and the show's apparent complete lack of awareness. It's always been the weak point of the show, but for so long, I thought that was the point - I thought they were actually going somewhere and that they were doing this on purpose. And I just don't think that anymore. So. I don't know if I can keep watching if the show is that completely unaware of what a manipulative, lying, and selfish character Stefan is. I have to make that decision still.
Arabian: Katherine04arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:28 am (UTC)
I've decided that this is how I'm approaching the Stefan, and Stefan/Elena stuff.

I thought they were actually going somewhere and that they were doing this on purpose. And I just don't think that anymore.

I think they are again.

Considering that we had Rose say that Damon challenges Elena, and had Matt say that Stefan should challenge Elena, that we will get there about Stefan. Realization will come that he needs to strike a balance that he's so far off. And Elena is not going to get over her fears and issues that are holding back in what is literally SIX MONTHS in the show's timeline. People don't change that quickly, and especially a girl who we know denies things, who cocoons herself to protect herself from even more hurt, who clings to what she knows. They are clearly not writing an episode by episode or season by season tale, they are doing the whole six years journey. And I've been pleased so much overall with so much, that I'm going to trust that we will get there by the end of the six years because there have been too many lines, too many moments, too many things that point to the fact that she is making mistakes, Stefan is making mistakes. It's just going to be a journey that lasts longer than one season. I just have to believe that that's intentional for now and that it will be eventually dealt with along the journey. If at the end of the show's run, I'm wrong, well, that's egg on my face, but there's just been too much, too much in between the lines that point to the fact that something will come of it.
Jamiemadjm on May 12th, 2012 05:02 pm (UTC)
I actually might stop watching the show. I don't know, when the new season premieres and there's more Damon hotness to be had, I will probably change my mind. But right now I'm pissed. And, as a hard-core D/E fan, I'm more offended at the way they have been stringing us along all this time for something that might possibly happen sometime in the future for five minutes before Elena goes back to Stefan AGAIN. I just am. I can deal with my couple not being together; that seems to happen in a lot of shows I watch. But don't market this as a love triangle, because it's so not. I feel like Elena doesn't give a shit about Damon, and that's making me kind of hate her.

But truthfully, what's got me the most angry (and may make me give up on the show finally) is the fact that Stefan is just as bad as Damon. I feel like you could make a case that he's worse than Damon, because one thing Damon is is totally honest about what kind of person he is. In fact, he almost oversells what a bad guy he is, so that people won't expect him to do good. Yet. Every person on this show would be dead if not for the fact that Damon does what needs to be done, and people dump all over him constantly. While Stefan, who has done just as much bad as Damon, gets a pass every time. He's the "good" brother.

And I'm tired of it. Whether there's D/E or not, if some folks on the show would start to acknowledge what Damon has done for them, I'd be a lot happier with the show.
Larissa: X-Files-Mulder looklarissa_j on May 14th, 2012 08:19 pm (UTC)
Actually it could be argued that Damon is 'better' in that Damon has more control over himself. Is less likely to simply lose control and rip the throat out of an innocent person because of blood lust. Not only that, Damon helped his brother come back from the monster Klaus made him, what twice?

In addition, let's not forget who is responsible for actually turning Damon when he was going to allow himself to die rather than become a vampire. So yeah, on the scale of bad, Damon comes out ahead.
Arabian: Alaric01arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:27 am (UTC)
I don't think it has to be argued at all that Damon is the better brother in that he has more control. Otherwise we wouldn't have had multiple episodes that had Damon being the one to show Stefan a better way to be in control. And it's only Stefan and his lovely gift for retcon that denied Damon's part in it, everyone else (Elena, Katherine, Damon) know that it's BECAUSE of Damon that Stefan is "better."
Jamiemadjm on May 15th, 2012 11:41 pm (UTC)
Yes, yes, yes! I have to say, I'm hoping that the writers are smart enough to have Vampire!Elena gain more insight into both Damon and Stefan now that she'll know where they're coming from, but we'll see.
Arabian: Damon & Elena01arabian on May 16th, 2012 01:07 pm (UTC)
It has to be coming, it just HAS to be!
Arabian: Damon & Elena14arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:32 am (UTC)
I actually might stop watching the show.

Please don't. I hope you read my latest post about the episode. There really is a LOT that bodes very well for us. MUCH better than for S/E.

I feel like Elena doesn't give a shit about Damon, and that's making me kind of hate her.

Please read my post if you haven't, I think it really might help.

Re: Stefan -- They are clearly not writing an episode by episode or season by season tale, they are doing the whole six years journey. And I've been pleased so much overall with so much, that I'm going to trust that we will get Stefan to where he needs to be with a realization that he isn't the "good" brother, and has to make better decisions by the end of the six years because there have been too many lines, too many moments, too many things that point to the fact that Elena is making mistakes with regards to Stefan, and that Stefan's way of doing things isn't the best way. It's just going to be a journey that lasts longer than one season. I just have to believe that that's intentional for now and that it will be eventually dealt with along the journey. If at the end of the show's run, I'm wrong, well, that's egg on my face, but there's just been too much, too much in between the lines that point to the fact that something will come of it.

Whether there's D/E or not, if some folks on the show would start to acknowledge what Damon has done for them, I'd be a lot happier with the show.

I actually think we are heading there. Jeremy likes Damon way more than Stefan. I think Meredith is going to be Damon's friend. Elena, I feel, will continue to be appreciative of him. And Bonnie -- who only two episodes ago blamed Damon for Abby -- is now working well with him, and clearly placed the blame about Abby where it belonged: On Klaus. In front of Damon. Plus, we had her acknowledge in 3.21 that Damon saved her, Damon healed her. For the first time we saw that Bonnie (like Elena and Ric) got a glimpse of the real Damon and not just the facade he wears.



Edited at 2012-05-15 11:55 am (UTC)
Jamie: ClintNatmadjm on May 15th, 2012 11:44 pm (UTC)
I'm feeling slightly better now, but I just sort of feel like the show broke my heart. I will undoubtedly keep watching, but I'm not sure I'll love it quite as much. I definitely won't trust the writers anymore.

But there's always fanfic, I guess!

As I said in response to another post, I'm hoping Elena will see both brothers in a new light based on her vampire experiences. But I'm not really counting on it. I have a feeling the writers of this show have a whiteboard to write their ideas on, and at the top it says, "STEFAN + ELENA 4EVA!" :P
Arabian: Jeremy Renner01arabian on May 16th, 2012 01:09 pm (UTC)
just sort of feel like the show broke my heart. I will undoubtedly keep watching, but I'm not sure I'll love it quite as much. I definitely won't trust the writers anymore.

Seeing the episode as I do now, I still trust them because they really are following through (at least D/E wise) on everything that works best for the couple in the long run.

I have a feeling the writers of this show have a whiteboard to write their ideas on, and at the top it says, "STEFAN + ELENA 4EVA!" :P

I just don't see it THAT way at all. If they did, they'd actually put care and love into the writing of that ship. They emphatically do not. AT ALL!
Jamie: Vengefulmadjm on May 16th, 2012 02:31 pm (UTC)
If they did, they'd actually put care and love into the writing of that ship.

OK, that is a fair point. Is it crappy writing, or are we just not supposed to love S/E? :)
Arabian: Damon & Elena(PR)04arabian on May 16th, 2012 03:14 pm (UTC)
I don't think think it's that we're not supposed to love them, I think it's that they are not THE couple, they are just a couple on the road to THE couple.
Florenciaflorencia7 on May 12th, 2012 07:34 pm (UTC)
The telling vs. showing, yeah, that's been a major problem for at least several episodes but I'm actually beginning to, um, break through (lol) as far as my sadness & disappointment go. Thank you so much for the link! It definitely helped me too & because I'm always happy to grab a grain of hope and hold onto it against all reason I think I'm going to start believing it's all meant to end well.

One thing occurred to me today. Maybe the fact that they are constantly talking about the triangle even when there is seemingly no triangle yet is actually extremely meaningful. If a couple of kisses (that happened only in S3 anyway), if Damon's mere presence, the fact of him just being in the picture (as opposed to Stefan having an actual relationship with Elena since, like, 1x01) already makes the situation a triangle - doesn't it make it clear how powerful, how strong, how real DE is? ♥
Arabian: Damon & Elena20arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:33 am (UTC)
Maybe the fact that they are constantly talking about the triangle even when there is seemingly no triangle yet is actually extremely meaningful. If a couple of kisses (that happened only in S3 anyway), if Damon's mere presence, the fact of him just being in the picture (as opposed to Stefan having an actual relationship with Elena since, like, 1x01) already makes the situation a triangle - doesn't it make it clear how powerful, how strong, how real DE is? ♥

Exactly! That's one of the key points I brought up in my long-ass post, LOL! Yup!
vanimy: TVDvanimy on May 12th, 2012 10:43 pm (UTC)
I wish I could quit the show, that's how bitter I am after watching the episode. I was already disappointed with the whole second half of season 3 but this finale really left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Right now I'm pissed but I know it'll leave the way for sadness tomorrow.

Fortunately for the writers I'm going to stick with TVD because I loved the first two seasons too damn much but the plot for season 4 has to be damn good for me to stick around longer than that season.

Also I really hope they're going to make Elena human again. I don't even care if it's ludicrous I want her human again. first because I think it destroys the whole point of the show if the main heroine is also a vampire and almost every human is either dead or a vampire too and also because like you I wanted her to choose Damon as a human.

I tried to keep my expectations low for these last episodes and even then I feel robbed and mocked and everything. It's the way they went about it you know. Why did they have to do that choice scene that way? It was so cruel. Why not have elena say she loved Damon like a brother while they were at it? Ugh.
Larissa: X-Files_MSR_BadBlood_HoooBoylarissa_j on May 14th, 2012 08:10 pm (UTC)
Also I really hope they're going to make Elena human again.

Never fear! Super witch Bonnie will come to the rescue. There are never any consequences for anyone in Mystic Falls except Damon... and maybe Rick because he's dead... but maybe not dead since Elena is not really dead.

As I said... no consequences.
Arabian: Elena09arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:25 am (UTC)
Actually in one of the post interviews, Julie Plec referenced that they know they used magic WAY too much and they are backing away from that.

And it's not just Damon who suffers consequences. They all do. (Elena got backlash from Bonnie over the Jeremy thing, and what happened to Abby. Jeremy got backlash from Bonnie over what he did to Bonnie. Caroline got backlash from Bonnie in season 02, etc., etc. Damon does get the most but that's (a) because Damon DOES the most, and (b) because Damon puts himself out for everyone to hate on, he doesn't apologize or try and make amends for anything he does. It's Stefan ONLY who doesn't. And I just have to believe that that's intentional for now and that it will be eventually dealt with along the journey. If at the end of the show's run, I'm wrong, well, that's egg on my face, but there's just been too much, too much in between the lines that point to the fact that something will come of it.
Larissa: TrueBlood-Eric on throne red backgroundlarissa_j on May 15th, 2012 12:51 am (UTC)
Actually in one of the post interviews, Julie Plec referenced that they know they used magic WAY too much and they are backing away from that.

It's good that they noticed. It seemed everyone had a magic ring or was a witch or was a relative of Bonnie's there for a while ;)

Oh, and white oak kept showing up!

And it's not just Damon who suffers consequences. They all do.

They do but to me at least, it's hugs and kisses a few episodes later. The only long term consequence aside from Damon's continuing 'shame' has been Bonnie with Elena and Bonnie's mom being a vampire which makes... no sense. But then, Bonnie isn't big on logic so... there is that. She's all magic first... think later.
Arabian: Damon&Liz01arabian on May 15th, 2012 01:02 am (UTC)
Yes, Damon gets the brunt and it's frustrated the hell out of me, but Damon also does the worst, and acts it up to keep receiving it.

Plus, I think it might actually start changing. Jeremy likes Damon way more than Stefan. I think Meredith is going to be Damon's friend. Elena, I feel, will continue to be appreciative of him. And Bonnie -- who only two episodes ago blamed Damon for Abby -- is now working well with him, and clearly placed the blame about Abby where it belonged: On Klaus. In front of Damon. Plus, we had her acknowledge in 3.21 that Damon saved her, Damon healed her, unspoken, because obviously, yeah, he does care. For the first time we saw that Bonnie (like Elena and Ric) got a glimpse of the real Damon and not just the facade he wears. Stuff like that has NEVER happened before, or been so implicitly implied. So I'm hopeful.
Larissa: TrueBlood-Eric/Sookie - handsome vamp stlarissa_j on May 15th, 2012 01:09 am (UTC)
I think it might actually start changing.

I really hope so. Now if they'd stop using compulsion on Jeremy and let him stay around to talk some sense into Elena and everyone else!
Arabian: Jeremy01arabian on May 15th, 2012 01:13 am (UTC)
LOL! Yeah, I can't argue with that. I like to hope that the compelling of poor Jeremy will stop now.
Arabian: Elena-Caroline & Bonnie01arabian on May 15th, 2012 01:17 am (UTC)
I was already disappointed with the whole second half of season 3 but this finale really left a bitter taste in my mouth.

Based on distant_autumn's finale write-up, as someone who watched the last 11 episodes in a row, and loved the finale because it all tied in, I do think that a rewatch will make that second half really work. Especially if we're looking at it as intended. Elena realizing she has these feelings for Damon, but she can't handle them, can't put a name on them, and losing more and more is driving her back into her desperate need for familiarity and safety (ie, Stefan), it will play out a LOT better.

Also I really hope they're going to make Elena human again.

I've decided that while I do want that, I don't want it until season 05 or even early season 06, because I think we should deal with her being a vampire again. Maybe by the time that happens, she'll be with Damon, and she'll get turned human. And we'll get that choice after all of her deciding that nope, she wants to be a vampire WITH Damon. Could happen.

Why did they have to do that choice scene that way? It was so cruel. Why not have elena say she loved Damon like a brother while they were at it? Ugh.

Seriously, that phone call scene was MAGNIFICENT for D/E in the long run. It really, really, really was. If my post didn't convince you, and if you're not on distant_autumn's flist, I'll email you her section about the phone call because she picked up on even more stuff that I missed that just made my heart clench and OH, OH, OH!
vanimy: Doctorvanimy on May 20th, 2012 09:16 pm (UTC)
I'm not on her flist and couldn't read the post! I'd love to read it, might cheer me up. :)

I don't know how anyone can change the way I feel about this scene though, lol. I rewatched it the other day (yeah I'm a masochist) and even after reading positive posts and all I still HATE it.

It's still the same feeling after rewatching it. It's actually pretty clear on both viewings : Elena loves Stefan and she cares about Damon. I still got the feeling that she let him go because she didn't feel that way about him and since it ties in with the Matt/mom flashback... I think that's what the writers wanted us to think.

And with all those JP talks about how Damon and Elena are friends...... 'ongoing friendship' anyone? *sigh*

Now I got over the fact Elena's going to be a vampire (re*sigh*) I think it would be lame to suddenly turn her back into a vampire too. I just hope the writers handle this storyline better than they did the Stefan ripper arc.
jamdouradojamdourado on May 13th, 2012 03:40 am (UTC)
Part of me was expecting she was going to choose Stefan, but it didn't hurt less.
I really don't understand the Damon meeting Elena first scene, I know she said it was basically one of the reasons she chose Stefan, but I can't see her remembering now ans choosing Damon, so, as much as I loved that scene I still see the point.
I was a little disappointed with Elena being a vampire, but I'm starting to like the idea. First, I wanna see Elena with her emotions intensified, I'm dying to see her mad at the Salvatore brothers, and SPECIALLY Stefan, serious, I'm still waiting to see some arguing about the the Wickery Bridge, second, now that she is a vampire, I think it will be easier for her to fall in with Damon and choose him, because, as much as she understands him as human, as a vampire she would be on his shows now, you know?? She would actually see how hard is to do the right thing when the people you lve is between life and death.
I don't know if we'll ever get that, but I want that Elena fights for Damon on season 4, I want Damon to makes her show that she really loves him.
Arabian: Damon & Elena(PR)03arabian on May 15th, 2012 01:11 am (UTC)
Have you read my loooooooooooooong episode review post? It really highlights some of your issues, and presents them in a positive light.

I don't know if we'll ever get that, but I want that Elena fights for Damon on season 4, I want Damon to makes her show that she really loves him.

A lot of people are saying that, and I don't know, maybe it's because I'm an Elena-fangirl and not just a Damon, Damon/Elena-fangirl, but I don't. I don't think she should have to fight for him because one of the things that has been so awesome about Damon's love for her is how unconditional it is, and how important it is to him that she's happy. If she decides she wants him, and that is what will make her happy, then he wouldn't make her fight for it. Now, I could see him playfully making her work at it (ie, well, you're gonna have to seduce me -- the whole nine years, sexy lingerie, eating phallic-shaped foods, etc. haha), but, actually fight for him, I don't want to see that.
Larissa: X-Files_Scully_larissa_j on May 14th, 2012 08:04 pm (UTC)
I read the post you linked to. The problem is, I simply don't trust the writers and honestly after everything Stefan did, if they could have Elena choose him? I really don't want to watch the show because I'm not interested in a female character like that and I'm not interested in a show that promotes that sort of male lead as a hero because Stefan is not a hero.

It was beyond insulting. Especially when they kept throwing Damon's 'behavoir' back in his face.

So yeah. I'm done.
Arabian: Mulder and Scullyarabian on May 15th, 2012 12:22 am (UTC)
I'm okay with this at this point, because I'm at the point now considering that we had Rose say that Damon challenges Elena, and had Matt say that Stefan should challenge Elena, that we will get there about Stefan. Realization will come that he needs to strike a balance that he's so far off. And Elena is not going to get over her fears and issues that are holding back in what is literally SIX MONTHS in the show's timeline. People don't change that quickly, and especially a girl who we know denies things, who cocoons herself to protect herself from even more hurt, who clings to what she knows. They are clearly not writing an episode by episode or season by season tale, they are doing the whole six years journey. And I've been pleased so much overall with so much, that I'm going to trust that we will get there by the end of the six years because there have been too many lines, too many moments, too many things that point to the fact that she is making mistakes, Stefan is making mistakes. It's just going to be a journey that lasts longer than one season.
Larissa: Fringe_Peter/Olivia holding hands BWlarissa_j on May 15th, 2012 12:42 am (UTC)
And I've been pleased so much overall with so much, that I'm going to trust that we will get there by the end of the six years because there have been too many lines, too many moments, too many things that point to the fact that she is making mistakes, Stefan is making mistakes. It's just going to be a journey that lasts longer than one season.

All possible. Most likely true, in fact.

My problem is that I'm far too cynical having been burned by shows that I've trusted to do the right thing because I've had faith in the writers and I've hung in there until the very end - for years - only to be very disappointed.

I just can't do it anymore. I don't expect instant payoff. I mean, look at Fringe. But if after three years, I'm frustrated and angry and can't see a reason to continue watching? Yeah. Time to walk away. To me? A six year investment is asking way too much.
Arabian: Damon04arabian on May 15th, 2012 12:59 am (UTC)
I would agree that a six-year investment is asking way too much, if one didn't extraordinarily ADORE the first three years as I have. Sure I've had a few meltdowns -- with my initial reaction to the finale being the worst -- but overall, I've never, ever, EVER so completely loved and been floored by a show like this. And after my meltdowns, 9.8/10 times, I come out with a clearer, richer love for the show. So for me, I don't consider investing three more years a bad one at all, just a continuation of enjoying my favoritiest television show of all time. :)

That's just me, though.