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30 August 2006 @ 12:36 pm
Rob Thomas: His logic does not resemble earth logic  
I just remain in a constant state of befuddlement regarding Rob Thomas' discussion of the upcoming season. With regards to Kristen Bell, I harbor no confusion whatsoever. If the show is cancelled, she'd, no doubt, be thrilled. But I believe that Rob Thomas actually does want the show to continue. Which is why I am so confused.



Rob Thomas knows that Logan is incredibly popular. He knows that many an online viewer is frustrated with the treatment by himself, Kristen Bell, even Jason Dohring, of the character and how he is dismissed, put down, shown to never practically get a break. He is well aware of the popularity of the L/V relationship from online, from most journalistic queries, from polls online and in magazines. He knows that many, many viewers were NOT happy with L/V dating over the summer, broken up during the show with eleven episodes of VD, not to mention the practically nonexistent triangle. Rob Thomas knows all of this; we know that he knows this.

Furthermore, he is well aware that his show's renewal was damn near a miracle. Based on how such decisions are made, VM should not have been renewed when looking at the facts -- growing dissatisfaction from viewership (even from some of the most loyal), ratings falling further and further into the toilet, a combined network leaving less available hours for programming. Yet, it was renewed. One would imagine that he would take his knowledge of all of the above in the preceding paragraph and use it, at least in promoting the show, to insure higher ratings when VM premieres.

However, Rob Thomas is going the opposite route. Instead of promoting the fact that Logan and Veronica are a couple and happy for a period of time, instead of all but crowing, I listened, I'm giving viewers what they want, yay!. Instead of offering viewers something to look forward to, he is letting viewers know the above but with a caveat that dampens much of any enthusiasm that would normally be derived from the L/V coupling information. The caveat being that we already have a new love interest for Veronica! Yay, says Rob!! He's the opposite of Logan!!! He's the anti-Logan! Yay, says Rob!! As if he actually, truly believes that this is going to make viewers look forward to the new season (and this character, who many are choosing to hate sight unseen because of this ridiculous pimping).

Essentially the man is saying: Look, I put the couple together that most viewers want together, but nevermind that, what you need to focus on is that I already picked this groovy, awesome, OMG!You're gonna love him SOOO MUCH! brand-new love interest for Veronica. And you'll all love him because he's the opposite of Logan.

Where in God's name is the logic there? Where?!?!? Why would the creator of a struggling show choose to promote said struggling show by pimping a new love interest and placing a dark cloud over the pairing most everyone wants ... BEFORE THE SHOW EVEN AIRS!??!?!?! I say this in all sincerity, not a trace of sarcasm. Rob Thomas' "... logic does not resemble our earth logic." I simply do not understand.
 
 
 
Femme Fetale: [vm]People are fragile things.slayervixen on August 30th, 2006 05:15 pm (UTC)
Rob Thomas is a fucking moron. Excuse my French but seriously ITA with everything you say, its like Rob's like 'YAY, got renewed my next move?? New Love interest, cos heaven knows I hate L/V shippers and the pairing!'

Its just I dunno I get that shows need to expand and grow. I get that couples on shows need to have issues and deal with things, I don't get new love interests and alienating the majority of the fanbase through stubborness. I feel RT is being stubborn its like a big middle finger to us because he's like okay I put them together now I'm back to my good old ways. If his past is anything to go by and Piz is a SUPER!SMASHING!GREAT way in the same context as Duncan was then erm, weird.

I totally agree though. I can't even get excited anymore cos of RT and his constant NEED to piss of L/V fans. I do believe he likes torturing us as mad as it sounds.
Arabian: epicarabian on August 30th, 2006 05:58 pm (UTC)
I know I'm preaching to the choir with you and you're preaching right back to me. It's just crazy.
Quote:
Rob Thomas is a fucking moron.


Yes, he is. There simply is no other explanation.

Quote:
Excuse my French but seriously ITA with everything you say, its like Rob's like 'YAY, got renewed my next move?? New Love interest, cos heaven knows I hate L/V shippers and the pairing!'
That is the thing that blows my mind; that people (God love them, I wish I had such optimism) believe that he doesn't have it out for the L/V shippers. I mean, honestly!!! Maybe I'm just such a Negative Nelly that I'm seeing everything through these horribly dark glasses, but I can't watch S2 or listen to the comments on S3 and NOT see that he doesn't despise the L/V shippers.

Quote:
Its just I dunno I get that shows need to expand and grow. I get that couples on shows need to have issues and deal with things, I don't get new love interests
I will NEVER understand the idiocy behind the reasoning that introducing love interests is the best way to create conflict in a relationship on television. Every now and then, yes, it should happen, but the fact that it's the first option that creators/writers jump to shows me (to quote my beloved Joan of Arcadia -- which sadly somewhat fell to the same fallacy) "a failure of imagination." If the pairing can so easily be swayed by a new love interest, then how can viewers get behind the pairing? Is their love that weak? Some new hottie comes strolling by and has a great personality so once a hint of trouble enters the relationship, the hottie becomes a love interest. It's just insane. And stupid. And it annoys the butt-fuck out of me!!!!!

Quote:
and alienating the majority of the fanbase through stubborness.
This is what blows my mind!! It is SOOO very rare that the vast, vast, vast majority of a fanbase likes, nay, loves one pairing -- especially when there are tons of other options -- and yet instead of embracing this lovely serendipity, Rob Thomas is being a stubborn ass and shitting all over it simply because it wasn't HIS original vision!!!!! GAH! Dude, get the fuck over it!!! It's still YOUR characters, it's still a relationship that YOU created!!! YOU got most of the original credit for the success of pairing!!! Take the fucking credit and exploit the shit out of it like, you know, ANY producer with an ounce of sense would do!!!!!!!

Quote:
ts like a big middle finger to us because he's like okay I put them together now I'm back to my good old ways.
Exactly, which brings us back to your original point: Rob Thomas is a fucking moron.

(Continued in next post)
Arabian: epicarabian on August 30th, 2006 05:58 pm (UTC)


Quote:
If his past is anything to go by and Piz is a SUPER!SMASHING!GREAT way in the same context as Duncan was then erm, weird.
If that's the case, and the more and more I hear about this character, I genuinely believe I'd dislike him whether the PizPimpathon was happening or not, he'll be slightly more popular than Donut!! What an acheivement!

Quote:
I totally agree though. I can't even get excited anymore cos of RT and his constant NEED to piss of L/V fans. I do believe he likes torturing us as mad as it sounds.
Right. I'm not excited about the season at all in regards to L/V. (I am looking forward to another spoiled pairing, though.) I mean, we already know clearly how KB feels, we already know that Piz has the hots for Veronica from episode one, we already know that they'll be working together (and OMG!!! something that fans wanted for LOGAN and Veronica, but which probably won't happen, because she'll have PIZ!! And of course, Logan will be an untrusting asshole for being jealous), so how can I be excited about L/V? Unless the script specifically says Veronica looks at Logan with love, KB will probably play her slightly withdrawn, underwhelmed, etc. while she beams the hell out of every scene with Piz because, you know, she probably imagines that Piz -- unlike the dastardly Logan who kept her from killing someone, being murdered herself, took care of her after she thought her dad died -- will step up to the plate!!!

So, I'm expecting a few good scenes, a few squeeworthy moments, but overall, I expect to be mehed because Rob clearly isn't pushing this relationship and KB will do everything she can to sink it through whatever acting choices she can make. I mean, Rob can say that Logan/Veronica have destiny all he wants, but in canon and between the lines, it's clear as day that to him Logan/Veroncia are NOT the couple; they are not IT and Veronica's true love was Duncan. I can only assume with Donut's departure, that he's now transferring that status onto the allmighty Piz. Whomever Veronica's soulmate is, Rob obviously does not consider for a moment that it is Logan, so in the end, we'll always be screwed. If the creator/exec. producer doesn't believe it, we'll never actually get it on the show.
WeHo M.: VM - Logan bathroomafrocurl on August 30th, 2006 05:19 pm (UTC)
I don't know if I get that impression from RT at all, but I could be totally wrong.

I think that everyone knows that Logan is a complex and twisted young man with serious issues, none of which are going to end with the death of his father and a budding romance with Veronica. He's still going to fuck it up (much to my dismay, really), so this whole Piz as the anti-Logan is fine.

Setting up the tension between LV and some of the new people at Hearst, for the sake of the mystery, actually do something really interesting.

Of course, RT's love of Piz could just be a tool to get all of us in the fandom interested in laughing at how bad this whole situation plays out. I'm upset at the prospect of LV not being together forever, but allof this talk about the new guy is going to get me watching more. I might even say, in some circles, that knowing about Piz can be one of the saving graces of the show right now.

Spoilerphobes will be intrigued by Piz when they meet him, and the rest of us will want to shot him with a hunting rifle and drag him to the Mexican border.

If this makes no sense, I blame it on the 5 hours of sleep I had last night and the fact that I'm stuck at my mom's work waiting to see if I'm needed.
Arabian: Frisky Businessarabian on August 30th, 2006 06:04 pm (UTC)
I soo wish I had your optimism, but I was optimistic to a ridiculous degree last season and kept it up for a few months, but by the time I knew about Donut Run (which I knew fairly early on), I was all optimistic-ed out. Sorry, he's just so lost me.

Quote:
Spoilerphobes will be intrigued by Piz when they meet him
Honestly, the more I hear about the character, I'm not so sure. From all I've heard, Chris Lowell is NO John Cusack and frankly, Rob Thomas is no Cameron Crowe. More than anything his description makes Piz sound annoying. And yes, I will laugh like a hyena (lovely imagery, I know ;) if the audience (spoilerwhores/spoilerphobes alike), just despise the character.

Of course, Rob will blame the lack of popularity on the Loganfangirls and the psychotic L/V shippers. But, hey, we gotta be good for something, right?
WeHo M.: VM - RBafrocurl on August 30th, 2006 06:10 pm (UTC)
Well, I might get jaded later on, of course, but I'll keep this up for the time being. That's not to say that I'm not frustrated by RT's comments, but that's another story.

If you know nothing about the show going into the season, Wallace's roommate may be an interesting character, but you never know.

The comparisons to SA is a bit weird, but I'll just ignore it for right now, as it's easier.

Issues with the OC last year, may actuallly give me something to be hopeful for. If CL can't keep up with the rest of the cast, then I'm just going to call him Johnny after that stupid surfer on The OC last year. It didn't matter that crazy RM fans hated a third wheel, it also helped that he was just bloody awful.
beatlegirl59 on August 30th, 2006 05:35 pm (UTC)
I love that he uses the expression "inevitable breakup" when talking about LoVe. Thanks, Rob, really. Is it inevitable because they're wrong for each other, or because you can't get your head out of your ass long enough to take a look at your fan base and see what we want?
Arabian: What's not to Love? (Logan)arabian on August 30th, 2006 05:41 pm (UTC)
You know I just skim through his comments now and I actually missed that quote. Arrrgghhh!!! I so need to make a variation on the FURT icon! Seriously. Guh, honestly, he deserves to have his show cancelled. He treats his fanbase so utterly ridiculously. It's just insane. Seriously!!!
sweetumms33sweetumms33 on August 30th, 2006 06:17 pm (UTC)
BLASPHEMY. As much as I am a crazy L/V shipper, I do NOT want this show cancelled. And while KB and RT's comments are annoying me, I take pleasure in knowing the originally Logan wasn't even going to be a main character. And originally Veronica and Logan were not going to be a couple. Jason Dohring changed all of that. RT knows one thing, and its that out of all of his actors JD has been the one with the most accolades, the one with the craziest fan base. Whether or not he's stupid about L/V he isn't stupid about how LUCKY he is to have Jason. So there is hope.
As for Piz, I will also be watching to point and laugh. If they recreate Duncan I will disapointed. They didn't do enough with that character first time around. It might be good to bring in a new guy, spice it up, maybe hook some new viewers. I am determined to be optimistic. Anyway it goes, Logan will still be getting a lot of screen time. And with the obnoxious way Veronica was all last season, I kind of do want to see him with someone else, just so he can be happy and not get so beat up on by her stubborn selfish self.
Arabian: devilarabian on August 30th, 2006 06:43 pm (UTC)
I know, I know, but honestly, if I had my druthers, I would have had the show end S1 with Logan at the door; I was that disappointed in S2. If I truly believed it would be better in S3, I wouldn't be so down, but based on the attitude (more than the comments) and the lack of earth logic in RT's statements (we won't even touch KB), I just have no hope left.

We get the awesomeness of Jason, but honestly, I don't know that RT does. I could be wrong, but I'd expect that if he did, he wouldn't have blamed the lack of cohesion in S2 on Logan's sub-story, nor would he consistently be putting down Logan's character. Sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree here.

I don't think he's going to attempt to recreate Duncan, but considering RT's attempts to make a GOOD GUY last season (in Duncan), I rather expect he'll be a Donutclone with superfastpatter and hyperness. Imagine a Duncan hopped up on uppers, instead of downers and that's what I think we may get.

Scary, I know.
sweetumms33sweetumms33 on August 31st, 2006 04:56 am (UTC)
Scary and disturbing. Duncan was amusing because of the last scene, when he proved how kick-ass he could be. A hyper Duncan just sounds nauseating. I liked TD, he did what he could with the crappiness of his role S2. Honestly, for me, the reason S2 sucked was Veronica. I despised her character, in all of its self-righteousness. If they had given us SOME resolution, some blowout to explain her utter stupidity in being obsessed with normal, I would have been happy. But they just left it, like all of her motivations weren't important.
As for the awesomeness of Jason, if RT doesn't see that I will throw a shoe at him. Because JD is amazing. Any and all articles I have read about VM always mention him, and his incredible acting ability. One article said he was the most likely to come out with a movie career. And the great chemistry the two have. It's just illogical. I feel like we are pushing for a ship that isn't going to happen, when its so obvious it should be happening...ARGH!

I'm sticking with the optimism though. They know fan girls like to squee. They want to keep the show on...hopefully it will work out!
deevee45deevee45 on August 30th, 2006 06:29 pm (UTC)
Where does RT talk about "inevitable breakup"? I'm not trying to be smart. I'm just trying to find it.

As far as Piz, goes, I don't know what else RT can say...he's got to be positive about him. He's not going to come out and say, "I created this mediocre character that resembles Duncan." Even if we know that's true!
Arabian: bellsarabian on August 30th, 2006 06:40 pm (UTC)
Right, but he doesn't have to go on and on and on about how magnificent he is, and neither does KB. You didn't hear anyone go on and on about Jackie or about Parker this season. No, it's all about the Piz!Pimpathon and it's just ridiculous.
deevee45deevee45 on August 30th, 2006 10:20 pm (UTC)
I think all of the positive Piz comments (especially on RT's part) stem mostly because of the extreme negative reaction of the fandom once the spoilers leaked. There's no need to say anything about Parker since that character hasn't garnered much of any notice. I'm sure RT knows what he has in JD, so I don't see anything threatening in Piz's character whatsoever. As much as I hated the Duncan/Veronica portrayal, I never doubted that the end game was going to be Logan/Veronica.
Hey, wait, what's going on?: L/Vmycenae on August 30th, 2006 11:22 pm (UTC)
Insane Troll Logic
At least Logan hasn't attempted to rape Veronica. Yet. I'm starting to fear that they've secretly got the clever idea in their heads to make Logan an out-and-out villain. I'd always hoped for a more stable L/V relationship, where he works with her to solve mysteries and they snark but get through things. But apparently we're getting another love triangle. GREAT.

I wonder how much of it really is just cold-blooded, "Fuck, we need better ratings. A new guy and new drama for new viewers might work." Because while long-time viewers would be satisfied with V in a stable relationship, it might (might) bore new viewers. I think that VM is a strong enough show (and primarily a MYSTERY show, not a nighttime soap) that they don't need drama-rama to hook people, but I guess Rob Thomas disagrees.

From a numbers standpoint, they're doing what they think they have to to survive. Just pimping Logan to the general public (who've never really watched the show) wouldn't really work. I'm not sure why Rob's pimping Piz to the fanbase so strongly, maybe he's just genuinely out of touch enough to think that EVERYONE <3s love triangles or maybe Piz really will be better than Duncan. It's like he's never quite grasped that the majority of the viewership sees Logan as the hero character. I mean, hello! Fascinating character arc of tragedy and redemption! EVERYONE (really!) loves redemption stories!

I don't know if I have a point, or if I just argued with myself. Aargh. Show make me crazy! (Also, wandered here from your related comment on smiles1_9's LJ. Hi!)
Arabian: What's not to Love? (Logan)arabian on August 31st, 2006 12:27 am (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
Also, wandered here from your related comment on [info]smiles1_9's LJ. Hi!

Hello to you. Yay, I'm glad you came over and shared your thoughts. :)

At least Logan hasn't attempted to rape Veronica. Yet.

Honestly, the two reasons I don't fear this is because I don't think Rob will want to open the Duncan/rape can of worms and such an act would. Secondly, I do think the network would just shoot it down.

I'm starting to fear that they've secretly got the clever idea in their heads to make Logan an out-and-out villain.

Oh, me too. Again, the only reason I don't think it will happen is because the network WILL veto it. However, I still think that he's going to cheat on Veronica (probably with Hannah, if RT can get the actress -- after all, he flat-out stated in an interview that he didn't care that the audience disliked Leo and Hannah, he liked the actors and thought they were great so he would bring them (my emphasis) back. He already brought Leo back, that leaves Hannah in them. (The fact that he flat-out said he didn't care that the audience hated the characters, he was doing what he wanted still boggles my mind.)

I honestly expect that Logan will get jealous of Piz and Veronica's "friendship" which will be played by everyone else as Logan being irrational. They'll get into a big fight, Logan will get drunk, either (a) meet up with Hannah back in town -- since RT referenced bringing the actress back despite the audience not liking her, screw the audience, it's what HE wants -- and fall into bed with her or (b) if no Hannah, random female. Veronica will show up at the godawful suite from Hell ready to forgive him (because you know she's the saint) and find him in bed with Hannah or random female. She'll run away crying and upset and boohoo, Logan will be the big bad and who will be there to comfort Veronica? But the wonderful, the adorable, the anti-Logan, the magnificently-named ... PIZ!!!!!

I'd always hoped for a more stable L/V relationship, where he works with her to solve mysteries and they snark but get through things.

Lordy, that would be WONDERFUL!!!

But apparently we're getting another love triangle. GREAT.

I know, blecch!!

I wonder how much of it really is just cold-blooded, "Fuck, we need better ratings. A new guy and new drama for new viewers might work."

Sadly, I really don't think that's it. If it were about numbers, RT would do Logan/Veronica, explore them (good and bad) and there would be no third party because the audience has made it ABUNDANTLY clear that they don't want a third party. For me, I don't even need them as you described above (although I'd LOVE to see that because I DO believe it CAN be done when you have such well-written characters played by such talented actors with such amazing chemistry), I could do with the ups and downs. Honestly, I don't mind ups and downs at all. It's RT's version of "down" I'm worried about. He has this apparent belief that viewers want sweet/happy LoVe. Yes, we want some moments/episodes like that, but we want the full, hot-blooded, emotional, epic, messy, complicated relationship, not just schmoop. And Logan and Veronica as individuals with their history and with the talent and chemistry of the actors can do that without the lame-ass other parties!

(Continued in next post. Sigh not enough space!)
Arabian: What's not to Love? (Logan)arabian on August 31st, 2006 12:28 am (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
Because while long-time viewers would be satisfied with V in a stable relationship, it might (might) bore new viewers.

I don't think so BECAUSE JD/KB are so good and have such chemistry.

I think that VM is a strong enough show (and primarily a MYSTERY show, not a nighttime soap) that they don't need drama-rama to hook people, but I guess Rob Thomas disagrees.

Which makes him an idiot. I still say it's HIS fault it became all about the LoVe online! If he had just had season two begin with Logan at the door, them dating, Logan's side-story (to give KB some time off) being working with Duncan to repair THEIR relationship, and also working with Wallace on cases to "help" Veronica, the show would have remained about Veronica's journey. Insteady, by focusing on the ridiculous VD and separating L/V, he made the show much about Veronica and Logan's journey. He screwed himself.

From a numbers standpoint, they're doing what they think they have to to survive.

I just don't see it that way.

Just pimping Logan to the general public (who've never really watched the show) wouldn't really work.

Again, I disagree. JD is handsome, he's wildly charismatic and frickin' adorable in interviews. The show has YET to promote him, the little bit he has been done has been great. They should be pimping HIM and pimping Logan/Veronica out the ying-yang. Damn, despite their horrible ratings, in S1 Logan and Veronica topped most couple lists and were only beaten out by Jim/Pam in S2 despite having mostly no story. Most shows would KILL for that kind of buzzed-about pairing and would make the most of. VM does their damndest to hide it, while the lead actress disses it to hell and back and the exec producer undermines it by pimping a new love interest.

I'm not sure why Rob's pimping Piz to the fanbase so strongly, maybe he's just genuinely out of touch enough to think that EVERYONE <3s love triangles or maybe Piz really will be better than Duncan.

I think he doesn't understand the fandom and thinks that if he pimps Piz enough, viewers will love him instead of Logan and he can finally have Logan back as the shady somewhat nemesis as originally planned.

It's like he's never quite grasped that the majority of the viewership sees Logan as the hero character. I mean, hello! Fascinating character arc of tragedy and redemption! EVERYONE (really!) loves redemption stories!

Very true. I honestly believe that RT's big problem is that he just can NOT let go of his original vision: Logan the Dick-like character who is Veronica's nemesis, Duncan the hero/love interest and Logan/Veronica as sorta enemies/definitely not love interests.

I don't know if I have a point, or if I just argued with myself. Aargh. Show make me crazy!

You have some valid points and some I definitely agree with.
Hey, wait, what's going on?: L/Vmycenae on August 31st, 2006 02:55 am (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
Oh, wow, so detailed! Thanks!

Honestly, the two reasons I don't fear this is because I don't think Rob will want to open the Duncan/rape can of worms and such an act would. Secondly, I do think the network would just shoot it down.
That was mostly just a bad Spuffy comparison joke. But I agree that VM wouldn't go there, really. Don't want people questioning wonderful Duncan more than they already do! I also doubt RT has any bad-boyfriend issues to work out.

From what RT said at Comic-Con (I admit I don't read that many interviews) it sounded like they were really trying to draw in the viewers that tuned into Gilmore Girls, get them to keep watching after GG ended, people that didn't already watch VM. I don't know much about GG, but is it more of a nighttime soap? I get that impression, but I've never seen an episode so I really don't know. Basically it seems to me its less about what current viewers want (which would be more L/V, more realistic) and more about what potential viewers might watch. Which, ew. I don't know if this will pay off, but I really think that RT believes it will. Obviously, he has to be all gung-ho in interviews, I don't know if any of this is network mandated, or if he regrets any of it... Either way, if it keeps VM on the air... I'm one of those people who likes having the show on, even if it's a bit bastardized. It's TV... it's not like the stronghold of intellectual and artistic integrity. Sometimes those things win, but I'm not holding my breath.

Insteady, by focusing on the ridiculous VD and separating L/V, he made the show much about Veronica and Logan's journey. He screwed himself.
Hm, yes, that's an interesting point. And it leaves the loyal viewing audience feel rather played. We've watched these characters struggle apart and finally come back together. And now there's some asshole named Piz?? It's the difference between taking Logan's "epic" speech as the show's statement for the L/V relationship (it's inevitability, it's power) as many viewers seem to have done, and taking it as just Logan being drunk and kinda delusional, which seems to be RT attitude. It's like he's not aware that he's got dynamite with these two and so is just squandering it. Frustrating!

I don't think they're actually foolish enough to reduce JD to villain- he's just too good and too compelling an actor, but it seems like they're trying to discredit Logan as a viable love interest for Veronica. I REALLY hope they don't bring back Hannah and he doesn't have another night with Kendall or something retarded. Grr. I'm not even dead set on V&L ending up together, forever, I'm just sick of it always being righteous Veronica (and her nice boy) against wicked Logan. *sigh*
Arabian: What's not to Love? (Logan)arabian on August 31st, 2006 01:01 pm (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
From what RT said at Comic-Con (I admit I don't read that many interviews) it sounded like they were really trying to draw in the viewers that tuned into Gilmore Girls, get them to keep watching after GG ended

I don't watch it other, but from what I've heard from those who DO watch GG, they are going about it horribly if that's the plan. Apparently Rory's Logan treats her horribly, much the way that KB describes Logan doing to Veronica (which is so crap) and so they say that the promoting RT and KB are doing is the kind that will actually keep viewers AWAY!

It's the difference between taking Logan's "epic" speech as the show's statement for the L/V relationship (it's inevitability, it's power) as many viewers seem to have done, and taking it as just Logan being drunk and kinda delusional, which seems to be RT attitude.

Yes! And that is so frustrating. It's like, hello!!! You want your show kept on the air, for goodness' sake, give them what they want! It's not like he doesn't know!!!

It's like he's not aware that he's got dynamite with these two and so is just squandering it. Frustrating! RIGHT!!! It IS frustrating. I still am boggled at how someone who ostensibly wants their show to succeed would keep going out of his way to find an alternative to and replace the insanely popular character/couple just because it isn't what he imagined when he first conceived the show years ago. Just insane!!!!

I don't think they're actually foolish enough to reduce JD to villain- he's just too good and too compelling an actor, but it seems like they're trying to discredit Logan as a viable love interest for Veronica.

Absolutely. That is why I full expect Logan to cheat on Veronica, it WILL hurt the character and kill the relationship for a lot of viewers. Rob wants to destroy the LoVe relationship ... which again: Stupidest thing ever!!!! You're on a struggling show. You have an insanely popular couple. PIMP that couple. PROMOTE that couple! Don't do your damndest miraculous season renewal after miraculous season renewal to destroy them.

Of course, I think it's too late already. I think that CW renewed VM thinking that RT finally got it (L/V together at the end), but once the S3 spoilers started coming and the focus was on the BREAK-UP of L/V and the Piz!Pimpathon began, they realized it was a lost cause. I think they are just waiting to cancel the show now. Witness the inclusion of VM in the promos like other shows that were done PRIOR to the S3 spoilers, but now -- I've heard nothing but complaints from fans of other CW shows in comparing the promos. I think that the CW figured why bother throwing good money after bad and that they are giving the minimum of promotion because they expect it to tank, they know RT won't ever change and actually DO for his show what needs to be done and so are just waiting to pull the plug ASAP.

I REALLY hope they don't bring back Hannah

Sadly, because of that "I like them, I don't care if viewers don't, I'm bringing THEM back" in regards to Leo/Hannah firmly makes me believe he will do that indeed.

Grr. I'm not

Hee! I am. LOL! They're soulmates, damnit!! :)

I'm just sick of it always being righteous Veronica (and her nice boy) against wicked Logan. *sigh*

YES! YES! YES!
sweetumms33sweetumms33 on August 31st, 2006 05:10 am (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
ARGH, this show is making me crazy.
by focusing on the ridiculous VD and separating L/V, he made the show much about Veronica and Logan's journey. He screwed himself.

I cannot agree with this more. The first episode of S2 was less about the mystery, less about the class warfare, and more about why Veronica dumped Logan. It didn't make sense. The Felix murder could have been done in an entirely different way but the show insisted on creating romantic tension with every scene. It was RIDICULOUS. Logan magically falling in love, then immediately falling back out. It was there purely to make him seem like more of a jerk. I was honestly more interested in Logan's growth than Veronica's new improved pod person.
Most shows would KILL for that kind of buzzed-about pairing and would make the most of. VM does their damndest to hide it, while the lead actress disses it to hell and back and the exec producer undermines it by pimping a new love interest.

This drives me insane. I don't get it at all. Everything written about this show either has a mention of JD or the intense chemistry JD/KB have. And despite all of their attempts to make D/V work, all us viewers could do is squirm. So many other shows have pimped couples that are PAINFUL to watch on screen (Dawson/Joey, that Rachel/Joey incident on Friends, Ryan/Marissa) and they have to compensate with other couples. RT has it in his hands, and he wastes it. Why aren't they on posters together? Why are they barely in the promo together? Thank god they put JD in the promo.

I agree with a lot of other people that they are doing this to grab more viewers, specifically the GG viewers. And I am also a person who just wants to see the show on, bastardized or not. But...the first season was better, and I wish they could get back to that dynamic. Optimism...holding on to it.
Arabian: CWCDarabian on August 31st, 2006 01:16 pm (UTC)
Re: Insane Troll Logic
The first episode of S2 was less about the mystery, less about the class warfare, and more about why Veronica dumped Logan.

Yuppers. Rob did it to himself. HE MADE IT ABOUT THE Logan/Veronica relationship because the vast, vast majority of viewers want Logan/Veronica, so when they didn't get them, instead of focusing on character developments, the mystery, etc., it becames about "when will Logan/Veronica get back together."

So stupid.

The Felix murder could have been done in an entirely different way but the show insisted on creating romantic tension with every scene.

Seriously. They could have done the bus crash to show Veronica's detective skills OUTSIDE of something that deeply affects her personally and had the Felix mystery been the one that affected her emotionally BECAUSE it affected her boyfriend (and friend, Weevil). I mean, seriously!

Logan magically falling in love, then immediately falling back out.

Do you mean with Veronica or Hannah? I disagree with both in either case. I don't think he ever fell OUT of love with Veronica; I think it was a knee-jerk reaction to being in pain. And remember, he didn't say anything truly mean or nasty to Veronica UNTIL after she blew up at him and was so cruel at the end of CCBB, it was after that, that we got snarky comments from him. The hallway comment in DE was Logan completely in pain, it wasn't delivered with a nasty smile and/or smirk. It was with a wistful pain that she had chosen such a course and damn her for doing so. It was about his pain, not about inflicting pain upon her.

And with Hannah, I don't think he fell for her at all. I think it was the idea that someone decent could actually care about that he fell for and even then, he got over it pretty damn quickly.

It was there purely to make him seem like more of a jerk.

And it failed miserably because most viewers were on Logan's side, while Veronica looked like a faithless bitch. I STILL hate her line from NitW where she claimed she was "absolutely faithful" to Logan while dating. Absolutely faithful, my ass!!!! Absolutely faithful is not spending hours with your ex, making googly eyes at him, showing nervousness when talking to him and your bf shows up, looking guiltily towards ex because your current boyfriend kisses you. Absolutely faithful. Yeah, right!

I was honestly more interested in Logan's growth than Veronica's new improved pod person.

Improved being written with the heaviest hand of sarcasm available.

Most shows would KILL for that kind of buzzed-about pairing and would make the most of. VM does their damndest to hide it, while the lead actress disses it to hell and back and the exec producer undermines it by pimping a new love interest.

YES! YES! YES!!!

So many other shows have pimped couples that are PAINFUL to watch on screen (Dawson/Joey, that Rachel/Joey incident on Friends, Ryan/Marissa) and they have to compensate with other couples. RT has it in his hands, and he wastes it. Why aren't they on posters together? Why are they barely in the promo together?

I KNOW!!! No FUCKING LOGIC!!!!

I agree with a lot of other people that they are doing this to grab more viewers, specifically the GG viewers.

But that makes no sense. GG fans who watch both shows are turned off by the promotion-style of VM, touting the horrible, not-plate-stepping-up boyfriend, inevitable break-up and Piz!Pimpathon, because it's way too symptomatic of the problems with GG.

And I am also a person who just wants to see the show on, bastardized or not.

Sorry, I'm not. I'd prefer to see Jason Dohring is another vehicle that actually gets how awesome he is, instead of relegating him to the status of red-headed stepchild. If the show was great, I'd be all on it, and I AM willing to hope it will be great, but based on S2 and these spoilers/RT/KB attitude, my hopes are not high and I again am wishing it'd been cancelled with Logan at the door at the end of S1.

But...the first season was better, and I wish they could get back to that dynamic.

It would be wonderful.

Optimism...holding on to it.

I've just been burned way, way too many times to hold onto optimism. Sigh.
deevee45deevee45 on September 1st, 2006 02:42 pm (UTC)
I believe that RT and the writers absolutely get what they have with L/V. I also believe that they think having them happy all the time makes for boring television. I would not worry at all about Piz...I actually think RT's comments were pretty benign about him, and his only reason for even talking him up is to try and counter the negative reaction from everyone as soon as they heard about him. He's simply defending the character that he created and I would do the same thing...

I actually think that RT is going to really play up the L/V dynamic at the beginning of the season. In fact, I expect the relationship to approach "epic" proportions in the first 6-8 episodes. Since he knows they make for very compelling television, he's going to use that chemistry to lure viewers (which he should have done for season 2 and I think he realizes that). Then, he's going to throw heartache their way, all for the purpose of riling up the viewers. If the viewers become invested in the relationship, there's no way they're going anywhere...they'll want to see how the whole thing ends and the buzz created could conceivably attract even more viewers. I think if RT plays it this way, the show stands a good chance of really catching on and becoming much more successful with viewers than it is now.

I've posted this before about actors. If you ask JD himself, I'm sure he would be pretty down about the show being cancelled if it were, so I don't wish it were cancelled after the first season. There's no guarantee (no matter how talented) that he would ever get that good an acting vehicle again in his career. Talented, gorgeous actors are a dime a dozen in Hollywood-we may think he's deserving of a great career, but we are (unfortunately) a very small part of the viewing public.

Arabian: One Angry Loganarabian on September 1st, 2006 05:00 pm (UTC)
I fully believe that RT gets what he has with L/V, I just also believe that he doesn't want it and wishes fervently that he could create an alternate pairing that would be supercede its popularity. And the reason that I believe this so strongly is because instead of promoting the fact that the couple everyone wants is together, he's promoting their break-up, most especially in the form of the new love interest.

I'm sure JD wouldn't have wanted the show cancelled, as I'm sure everyone else involved with the show (but Bell) wouldn't have wanted it cancelled, and as well as I'm sure that most viewers don't want it to have been cancelled. I'm just speaking of myself. I would have preferred VM as a truly fabulous show and wonder what could have been, instead of knowing how lame S2 was. My sister and BFF are not online VM fans, they're not Logan/Veronica or Logan fans and both really did not like S2. I even offered to burn S2 for my sister just to have and watch and she didn't even want a copy of S2 for free. I want to believe that S3 will be better, I really, really do. I just don't trust RT or KB and their attitude and he's in charge of behind the scenes and she motivates what happens much of onscreen because so much of the show is her.
deevee45deevee45 on September 1st, 2006 05:14 pm (UTC)
I have to say, I do worry about KB because I thought a lot of what went wrong in season 2 was that she didn't play the subtext at all. I vascillate back and forth as to why (she didn't care or she hates Logan--take your pick, there's evidence for both).

Why do you think he wants an alternate pairing? (Not trying to be smart, just asking.) I know he thinks very highly of JD, so I don't understand why he would want another pairing at the expense of an actor who brings so much to the character and show and who could bring in viewers. My personal feeling is that he thinks keeping L/V together is boring television, not that he hates the pairing. I mean, he did write for Dawson's Creek!
Arabian: fandom?arabian on September 1st, 2006 05:38 pm (UTC)
I think KB hates Logan. She's literally said she doesn't care for him. I think that's because she's basing her opinion of Logan on the original selling of the character. She doesn't watch the show (she's said so) and clearly pays no attention to what happens in scenes she films with him (based on her erroneous statements and the whole lack of "stepping up to the plate" commentary).

And that's the same problem with RT: The original concept of Logan's character. His original vision had Logan as Veronica's nemesis. They were never, ever intended to be love interests and I think that RT has enough of egomania in him that he's frustrated that the fans love the character and L/V pairing so much that it's forced him to change his original vision.

Think of the first fifteen episodes of S2, that snarky, not-so-nice behavior is what RT wants for L/V. (Remember he wrote and directed Donut Run -- the episode that, bar none, had the meanest L/V interaction all season long). Look at it this way, if VD had taken off in S2, then Logan and Veronica would have stayed on their Logan-is-the-nemesis-like track -- which is the track RT always intended them to be on.

I just don't think he likes that he isn't able to keep his original vision intact and he wants it back. He already lost Veronica's "twu wuv" with Donut, so he's trying to replace Donut with Piz. And the hope is probably that viewers will either (a) be bored by schmoopy/happy L/V (if they are portrayed as such) and clamor for a Piz/Veronica pairing which leads L/V back to Logan as her nemesis. Or (b) Logan will slowly be shown as a bad boyfriend, flirting with other girls, not being there for Veronica, cheating on Veronica and fans won't want him with Veronica ... and will clamor for a Piz/Veronica pairing because Piz is such a great guy. Which again will lead back to Logan is her nemesis and they treat each other like they did at after she Summer 2006 breakup.