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28 October 2011 @ 12:39 am
3.07 - 'Ghost World' (The Vampire Diaries)  
Whee! New Vampire Diaries Thursdays always make me happy. :)

So, I don't know if it was the complete lack of Damon and Elena (I iz sad!) or that overall this wasn't an overwhelming episode for me, but I don't really have much to say. I'm just gonna do some bullet-points and there won't be much.

- First of all, I do want to say one thing with regards to Damon and Elena. I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA. This helped to confirm my own personal belief that Damon is not changing or becoming better FOR Elena. I think it's BECAUSE of Elena's influence. It's like what Andie said ... love changes a person, makes them better. It's like, for me, Elena has ignited that desire that has always been in Damon to be better, but until he's ready, until he wants to, it's not going to happen. Because he's not doing it for her, he's doing it for him, he's allowing himself that belief that he can be better because he's acknowledging that the desire is there. And that desire has been brought to the forefront because of his love for Elena. But it's about *his* desire to change, and *his* choice to do so.

- Okay, now, Stefan and Elena. So, I felt that even the 'good' stuff with them wasn't all that good. I mean, sure the symbol of his hope wasn't destroyed (and funny how the necklace is now the symbol of Stefan's hope * -- as opposed to the unbreakable bond between Stefan and Elena), but Elena pretty much had no qualms about it being destroyed, just when. Also, I did find it interesting (and hopeful, snerk!) that Elena never said 'I love you' as a way to bring him back. Sure, at the very end after they were done trying for the day, she said she wouldn't love a ghost for the rest of her life, but it was about what she wouldn't do, not what she would. That I do think is significant.

As was her storyline with Stefan paralleling Jeremy's with Anna ... which ended with Anna letting Jeremy go because it was what was best for him. And Stefan is an addict, he always will be, there will always be setbacks. He is a vampire who really can not and most definitely SHOULD NOT be with a human. (Which is why Katherine or Rebekah or, oh, I don't know, Caroline would be so much better for him. Yeah, let's go with Caroline in the long run!) So, it would be best for Stefan to let Elena go (as he said he should in episode three of fricking LAST season). On the other hand, Damon has no problem being with a human, and it not effecting who he is or wants to be. (By the way, more on Jeremy and Anna later -- it's not hearts and flowers.)

* I wonder if the reason that the necklace -- coming from his time with Rebekah and Klaus -- symbolizes hope is maybe because that was a Stefan who chose to turn off his humanity switch and thus still allowed himself to care and feel. By having the necklace symbolize his hope (and us knowing that it's tied to Rebekah), it's possibly about how Stefan realized that even with his Ripper persona intact he could still find someone(s) who loved him. People who could accept him fully for who he is, and something tells me that as much as Damon has never had that, Stefan hasn't had that as a vampire either. So that's the hope part ... but yeah, it's tied into that family unit he found with Rebekah and Klaus.

Now, I will concede that this episode did give more hope to the Stefan/Elena contingency that's been seen since the season started, but I still don't think it was much really and can be seen that she's reaching her tether, and their stuff can just as easily be taken as signs that they don't and shouldn't last (see above paragraphs). Yes, Stefan's "hope" wasn't smashed to smithereens, but that hope (we know -- something that neither Lexi nor Elena know) is tied up in his love for Rebekah, not Elena. After all, that necklace as a symbol of his hope showed up a LONG time before Elena did, meaning the significance of it as his hope was attached to the vague attachment to Rebekah. So, in addition to it not being about Stefan and Elena's bond, I'm also scoring that as a plus in the 'we will get Stefan/Rebekah explored' column! Booyah!

- distant_autumn has mentioned it a bit, but they are REALLY laying it on thick now in equating Lexi (Stefan's lifelong PLATONIC friend) with Elena. I am down with that. Especially since I like Elena A LOT more than Lexi. Yeah, I still ... I just don't get it. I do not get the Lexi love. Nope.

- Okay, my favorite ghostly return: PEARL!!!!!!!!! (Damn, Kelly Hu is gorgeous!) I just wish we'd gotten more with her, but I will enjoy my few seconds because I love her so and I will take what I can get! I did like that it meant that both she and Anna would have their peace. (I mean, that's how I took it.)

- My second favorite ghostly return: Grams! I loved that the connection was still there, so strong, so beautiful between her and Bonnie. I loved how this new writer to the show seamlessly captured the character and her relationship with Bonnie. The first scene had me smiling through teary eyes, and when she took her hand at the end, and they spouted Latin together and then she told Bonnie that she was "stronger than all of this. I'm so proud of you," I was like ooh, so beautiful. LOVE!

- Not so much full of love? Fucking Jeremy. Per my notes: Jeremy is a dick, a douche and a dirtbag. First of all, what the hell? Yeah, he cared a lot about Anna, but VICKI was the one he was so crazy in love with. Vicki is the one that he was using Anna to get to most of the time he was with her. I didn't really notice it so much last week because I was wrapped up in the overwhelming awesome and the Damon/Elena-squeefest, but it really hit hard in this one. Not one regret that he didn't see Vicki again, didn't get to touch her? I don't deny that he did care greatly, even loved Anna, but to just completely ignore the importance of Vicki? Not cool. But, no, he's all about Anna, "I loved Anna, I always loved her," and then little asswipe kissed her ... when he has a perfectly awesome girlfriend! Jerk. Jerky jerky JERK! I was SO glad that Bonnie told him that he had to respect her enough to not bother explaining it to her because she was right. There is no explanation, anything he said would be lame-ass justification for his shitty behavior. Go Bonnie. And goodbye to my puppies, rainbow and sunshine couple. Bonnie? You deserve better. You and Matt officially have my blessing. :)

ETA: I liked what silviakundera said below: That "Damon's compelling made him move past her death and put him at peace with losing her, so there wasn't that unfinished business that he had going on with Anna. Also, I feel like he should have more perspective now about his choices during the summer before S1/early S1 [...]The whole dysfunctional clusterfuck that was Jeremy/Vicky looks less romantic when you're not always high, self-destructive, and drowning with grief about your parents."

That really helped my take on it. I mean, I do still have a wee problem in that he *still* wanted to be with Vicki after he was with Anna, BUT, he has also been in a healthy relationship with Bonnie so the complete unhealthiness with Vicki would definitely be more apparent. So yeah, this works. He was still a total ass to Bonnie, though.

Back to Anna and what she did for Jeremy, I guess it was good, but I just never cared enough about them as a couple, plus I was too annoyed at Jeremy for being such a lousy-ass boyfriend that I wasn't moved at all by her letting him go. I'll be perfectly happy with it in retrospect if it's helping to foreshadow Elena letting Stefan go, though!

- Still on the ghosts: It was kinda cool to see nasty ole Frederick! And even cooler seeing Caroline be all bad-ass on a whole slew of the ghostly tomb vampires. Good thing, of course, that the spell was broken before nasty ole Frederick could take Caroline down. The main ghost/vampire I would have loved to see return? JENNA! Man, they better be saving her for later somehow/someway down the line. JENNA!! WAH!

- Speaking of Ric's former loves ... I think it would have been cool had Isobel shown up as well. Maybe popping up to say 'hey, Ric!' Of course, he was preoccupied patching things up with Damon. Whee!!! Oh, man, seriously, my favorite line of the night was: "We're not friends! I don't like you anymore." Could he have been any less convincing? Could he have sounded any less like a five-year old? I don't think so. Man, I laughed so hard. Rewound it a few times. I will say, though, that I don't get Ric's whole 'you tried to kill me.' No, he didn't. Damon made sure that Ric had the ring before he snapped his neck. Damon would never actually try to kill Ric. And I still am kinda really pissed off that there was no acknowledgment that Ric was a dick to Damon FIRST! But, but, but, but, I am still quite, quite thrilled that they made up. YAY! It was lovely, very, very lovely. Damon's smile at Ric, telling him that he didn't mean the crappy, recycled apology when he gave it to Mason. I was just ... aww, I love these two so much. Yay! Yay! Yay!!!!!

I do wonder what we'll happen now if Ric walks in on any Damon/Elena moments since he is acknowledging that he is Damon's BFF again. Hmm.....

- I was sad that Damon clearly doesn't trust Liz enough to call her though :(

- I really, really, really hate Damon's hair. Why, show, why? The dye job looks so, so, so, sooooooooooooooooo fake. Ian Somerhalder has BROWN hair! Not black. It is obvious when you dye it inky black that it is NOT his natural color! GAWD! Oh, Ian, I actually long for the summer hiatus sometimes just so I can see your hair resort to normalcy.

- Caroline even in a small role was just all-around awesome. Love her.

- *Sigh* I'm still waiting for acknowledgement from the peanut gallery that Stefan is actually worse than Damon. I know, it will likely never happen, so stop dreaming. Although, I will say that I was surprised that Bonnie uttered the words "Damon is right" and that neither she nor Caroline trash-talked Damon even after he left. There were a few grimaces, but overall, I was quite pleased. And it was a pre-clip shown earlier this week, but Damon letting Bonnie know about the ghosts was just as awesome the second time around. I do wonder if anyone else was as amused as I was that he didn't have to say a word. He drove up, and both Caroline and Bonnie immediately began walking towards him because you know HE'S THE BOSS! Then of course, "Greetings. Blondie. Witchy."

- Speaking of those three characters, it was weird seeing Bonnie and Caroline rifling through his room, I don't know why, but it was.

- So no Klaus or Tyler, and Matt's appearance was just one dinky scene. :( Of course, my pain for lack of character-age was pretty much all tied up in NO REBEKAH!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

- Or Katherine?!?!? What, they're just gonna leave us hanging?!?! Dude! I want to see how Queen Kat gets herself out of this one.

- Hmm, so I guess Lexi's hallucination-effect on Stefan is further proof that vamps can do that to each other. We've seen it with Damon (to Stefan early on, and then Rose on her deathbed) and Katherine (to Stefan) and Stefan (to Katherine).

- Yeah, only took a few scenes. I'm back to not being all that hot and bothered over Taylor Kinney. Eh. However, I did love Mason's line that he knows Damon would do anything for his brother, awww.

- *Sigh* Well, it was kinda a lame ending, sorry. I mean knowing what it is (from the preview for next week) made it cooler, but still... They've had better.

- I liked that the only credited guest stars were Malese Jow and Taylor Kinney, ghosts we'd already seen. All of the others were uncredited so even the die-hards didn't exactly know which ones would show up. So cool. (I knew about Lexi, had heard Pearl (!) rumored, but had no clue about Grams or Frederick. (So happy about Grams!)

- Ooh, ooh, I loved Caroline's "Miss Sheila." So Southern.

Not an awesome episode, but then the last two weeks were stupendous, so I won't complain because it was a very good episode. Definitely better than "Disturbing Behavior." I think it fits nicely within the range of episodes 1 and 2 ("The Birthday" and "The Hybrid") -- which were both great, but the lack of Damon/Elena-ness did kinda ding it for me. Hey, I'm a couple-girl, they're my couple, it helps my love of episodes when I get good couple stuff. Still, the Damon/Ric was stuff was wonderful! Damon was pretty much awesome for the little we saw of him, same for Caroline. Bonnie was fabulous, even if Jeremy was a douchebag, and PEARL! I got to see PEARL! again! :D
 
 
 
Azmiri Sultana Mridul: pic#113975673mridul777 on October 28th, 2011 06:21 am (UTC)
First of All:

Team BadAss is Finally Back..and It's Official...Yay Yay Yay Yay!!

Okay, it wasn't something shocking, and it would have happened nonetheless, but I am so happy it happened... Squeee!! Plus Damon's apology...Oh man....the man definitely gave me some new words that I can use in my future instead of saying "I Am Sorry"..... you've gotta admit, using those 3 lines tends to get a bit old.

Plus Damon's face while he was apologizing to Ric...Oh I poked and pinched at my computer screen.... they were adorable!!

About Elena/Stefan, when Lexi was talking about the necklace and how it represented hope, I was saying, but that isn't attached to Elena, whatever hopes or things he felt for it is tied to Klaus/Rebekah.... and he is who he is now, because of Klaus and maybe Rebekah included, so why would the necklace give him hope to return into his human/vampire state?

That being said, Wesley did such an awesome job with Ripper Stefan today..God he behaved exactly like an addict, when he was saying "I'm Sorry Elena, I'll be good, I love you"....even I was convinced for a sec, trust me...But then he regressed and started spitting venom and I was like "Whoa there!"

Interesting facts for me about this episode are the Mason and Damon interactions, Damon face during "told ya" to Ric. Plus Ric's snort after Mason wanted an apology from Damon, and I love the way how Ric schools Damon, and he apologized after getting the scolding form Ric...awwh these 2 are the ADORABLE-EST!!

Another stuff which I found interesting..but in a different way was Elena's advice to Jeremy "You can' be in love with a ghost forever", when she said those lines, I immediately replied , "talking to/about yourself Elena?".
Then she made that face, and I thought maybe she realized the similarity between her condition with that of Jeremy's but it was revealed to be because of Anna.
Then later when she threw back the words "I can't be in love with a ghost forever", I was surprised and happy that she did realize her surrounding conditions. Good! Awesome!

And her relationship with Stefan and that comparison that was made with with the relationship between Lexi and Stefan got me thinking. You know, since Ep 6 and the Stefan calling out Elena on being jealous over Damon/Rebekah, I've been thinking, that the way Stefan now behaves around Elena....
He's not gonna be BAAAD bad for all the time, and the way their equation is unravelling now, it seems that some where along the line, they can become very good and honest friends...

which is interesting because Damon and Elena started with being honest and good/very good friends with a connection, the "something" between them, and now they are heading to the path of having one of the MOST HOTTEST and REAL-EST and AWESOME-EST relationship ever.

Whereas Stefan/Elena started their journey by suddenly hopping into the "EPIC LOVE" story, which might spiral or trickle down into a possible friendship, somewhere in the future. At least I hope so!

Arabian: Damon&Alaric03arabian on October 28th, 2011 11:35 pm (UTC)
About Elena/Stefan, when Lexi was talking about the necklace and how it represented hope, I was saying, but that isn't attached to Elena, whatever hopes or things he felt for it is tied to Klaus/Rebekah.... and he is who he is now, because of Klaus and maybe Rebekah included, so why would the necklace give him hope to return into his human/vampire state?

No, he isn't who he is now because of the necklace in relation to Klaus/Rebekah. That was a Stefan who chose to turn off his humanity switch and so he still allowed himself to care and feel. This Stefan with it forced off is a different bird. By having the necklace symbolize his hope (and us knowing that's tied into Rebekah), it's possibly about how Stefan realized that even with his Ripper persona intact he could still find someone(s) who loved him. Accept him fully for who he is, and something tells me that as much as Damon has never had that, Stefan hasn't had that as a vampire either. So that's the hope part ... but yeah, it's tied into that family unit he found with Rebekah and Klaus.

Then she made that face, and I thought maybe she realized the similarity between her condition with that of Jeremy's but it was revealed to be because of Anna. Then later when she threw back the words "I can't be in love with a ghost forever", I was surprised and happy that she did realize her surrounding conditions. Good! Awesome!

I thought that was a good directional gotcha there. We assumed she got that similarity, then the reveal of Anna made it seem she didn't, but the final scene with Stefan revealed that, nope, she did.

He's not gonna be BAAAD bad for all the time, and the way their equation is unravelling now, it seems that some where along the line, they can become very good and honest friends...

That's the hope that distant_autumn and I have long had. :)

which is interesting because Damon and Elena started with being honest and good/very good friends with a connection, the "something" between them, and now they are heading to the path of having one of the MOST HOTTEST and REAL-EST and AWESOME-EST relationship ever. Whereas Stefan/Elena started their journey by suddenly hopping into the "EPIC LOVE" story, which might spiral or trickle down into a possible friendship, somewhere in the future. At least I hope so!

That's certainly what we hope! :D
Azmiri Sultana Mridul: pic#113975669mridul777 on October 28th, 2011 06:21 am (UTC)
Pt 2
Jeremy..GAWD..what's wrong with that KID!!!

Need I remind him, HE was the one who sorta forced Bonnie to face her feelings for him, he was stubborn for them to happen, AND SHE lost most of her powers to bring HIM back from dead, she even said she LOVES him. WHAT HAPPENED!!!

What was the "I always loved her"?? Did he forget that he treated Anna very rudely and was with her only so that she can help him be with Vicki? Did he also forget that, he didn't even invest himself so much in her as he did with Vicki and Bonnie....Where did all that long lost love suddenly appear from...And WTH and Why the Hell did he do, what he did with Bonnie..? Ugh!!!

I totally agreed and was with Bonnie when she said that he had to respect her enough not to bother her with the explanation. Damn him and his explanations! Im soo mad!!

Caroline is/was/always will be the MOST AWESOMEST friend ever...plus she was soo feisty today...saving her boyfriends mother..You Go Girl!!!! I LOOOOOOVVVVEE HER!

The lack of Damon/Elena was prickling, but I am hopeful for the next episodes.
Oh and the exchange between Damon and Mason, plus the very little Damon and Stefan was amusing. I felt kinda bad for Mason though.

Grams..the return of Grams, and Bonnie's cries... Mann!! It melted my heart, and when she left..again! Bonnie was completely alone this time. No best friend to help her, or anyone except for a douche of an ex-boyfriend... :(

Pearl...that Lady is soo sexy!! When I heard Pearl will be back, I was so excited, I was on alert to finally see her after such long time, but that scene was soo SHORT! Anyway..I'm hopeful though...because the gateway pass seems NOT to be destroyed and Pearl was the one who introduced Mikael (or more like his info's) to Katherine...so I'm guessing, or more probably hoping we'll get to see more of Pearl during Mikael revelations.

Lexi was back...and I was very happy. I know you don't like Lexi, but I find that girl so awesome. I love her, plus she didn't even faze once during all of Stefan's hate spiel. Which proves that she's been at it longer than anyone c an think of, which makes me wonder..why exactly? Why did she make it her life's motto to straighten Stefan whenever he was off the rails...? Intriguing and a little weird, because every intriguing thing in this show has a whole new mind-boggling back story, that hits you from nowhere, so one has to have their minds prepared for ANYTHING!

Anyway enough for today.... I'll conclude my rambling with

YAY.....Team BadAss Is Back!!


Arabian: Damon&Alaric01arabian on October 28th, 2011 11:39 pm (UTC)
Re: Pt 2
Jeremy..GAWD..what's wrong with that KID!!!

So damn much. Pig.

Need I remind him, HE was the one who sorta forced Bonnie to face her feelings for him, he was stubborn for them to happen, AND SHE lost most of her powers to bring HIM back from dead, she even said she LOVES him. WHAT HAPPENED!!!

EXACTLY! He pushed her for this relationship and then he pullst his crap? Grr.

The lack of Damon/Elena was prickling, but I am hopeful for the next episodes.

The only reason I'm happy about that is actually something I added after you responded (if you want to go back and read that bit, it's at the top of the write-up; I also added more about the Stefan/Elena equation). By making there be no overt connection to Elena in this episode and yet having it be an episode where Damon/redemption and him being the better man really shows that it is about DAMON choosing this, and not just doing it for Elena. :)

Pearl...that Lady is soo sexy!! When I heard Pearl will be back, I was so excited, I was on alert to finally see her after such long time, but that scene was soo SHORT!

I only knew it was rumored so I was happy with what I got!

Anyway..I'm hopeful though...because the gateway pass seems NOT to be destroyed and Pearl was the one who introduced Mikael (or more like his info's) to Katherine...so I'm guessing, or more probably hoping we'll get to see more of Pearl during Mikael revelations.

I think the gateway pass *has* been destroyed, but we could still see Pearl in flashbacks, so hope springs eternal.

Re: Lexi. She just ... bugs. And this is part of it, it's like she's so fricking obsessed with Stefan. Okay, whatever.
vamplover85vamplover85 on October 28th, 2011 06:22 am (UTC)
Did you like Elena after this episode???? A lot of people hated her because she's not moving on from Stefan and she's not giving up hope, she's not going to do that cause she's that way no matter what, yeah the necklace still lives and I love what Damon said about it, "I'm never gonna hear the end of that damn necklace" lol I think she's trying to move on but she's still denying her feelings towards Damon and towards Stefan I think she's loving the past Stefan and can't help that maybe he's there. I agree on the "I love you" thing I think in the end she's saying that to him to get to where he needs to be and that's it, I think it's squashed right now with her. and at the end she said she wouldn't be in love with a ghost all her life, she get's that now. I don't know but I loved everything else, I cried when Anna found her mom and left with her. *sigh* and eh, Taylor Kinney is very gorgeous but eh...no. I don't get the hype even though he's dating Lady gaga lol. I like Caroine she's getting past her problems and moving on and she kicked ass, and ha Damon "greetings, Blondie, Witchy," lol. and Jeremy was a jerk that's all. He was Necrophilia it with Anna when he was perfectly with Bonnie when she's right there in front of him. But all in all, it was good, not perfect, but good next week's looks bad ass why does it the week after the next we get really good episodes? lol.
Arabian: Damon04arabian on October 28th, 2011 11:43 pm (UTC)
Did you like Elena after this episode????

Of course. She was awesome.

A lot of people hated her because she's not moving on from Stefan and she's not giving up hope

Number one: Hello, that IS Elena. She doesn't give up, she's incredibly loyal. Damon/Elena fans should be DAMN happy about that aspect of her character or there would never be a Damon/Elena. As for her not giving up hope, uhm, did they not hear her last line to him? She basically said: You don't make the choice to stop this crap or I'm done, dude.

I think she's trying to move on

I don't think she is, and I don't think it would be in character were she to do so without giving it her all. She's lost SO MANY PEOPLE she loves, it's going to take longer than a few months before she gives up.

but she's still denying her feelings towards Damon

She's not denying her feelings for Damon anymore; she's just not discussing them, LOL!

Jeremy was a jerk that's all. He was Necrophilia it with Anna

Well, he was a jerk, but that was NOT necrophilia. Necrophilia is getting it on with an actual corpse. She may be dead, but as a ghost, she wasn't a corpse.
(no subject) - vamplover85 on October 29th, 2011 12:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
Silvia Kundera: TVD-handssilviakundera on October 28th, 2011 08:57 am (UTC)
Yeah, I still ... I just don't get it. I do not get the Lexi love. Nope.
Me either. I really hope this is the end of her. DNW.

With the Jeremy/Vicky thing, my personal read of the situation is that Damon's compelling made him move past her death and put him at peace with losing her, so there wasn't that unfinished business that he had going on with Anna. Also, I feel like he should have more perspective now about his choices during the summer before S1/early S1... maybe it's just me, but I feel like he's got to look back on that now with different eyes. The whole dysfunctional clusterfuck that was Jeremy/Vicky looks less romantic when you're not always high, self-destructive, and drowning with grief about your parents. But I do see how some people feel it's continuity fail.
Arabian: Jeremy & Bonnie03arabian on October 28th, 2011 11:47 pm (UTC)
Re: Lexi -- Me either. I really hope this is the end of her. DNW.

Ditto. Please let this be the last we see of her. Pretty, pretty please. With every appearance I like her less and less, and I was pretty unimpressed with her first go-round.

Re: Jeremy/Vicki vs Jeremy/Anna --

This was actually a really, really good take on it. I guess my only problem with this is that he *still* wanted to be with Vicki after he was with Anna, BUT, he'd also been in a healthy relationship with Bonnie so the complete unhealthiness with Vicki would definitely be more apparent. So yeah, that works. Thanks. :) He was still a total ass to Bonnie, though.
Maeve: TVD: Cuddlemarble_rose on October 28th, 2011 09:20 am (UTC)
*Sigh* I'm still waiting for acknowledgement from the peanut gallery that Stefan is actually worse than Damon. I know, it will never happen so stop dreaming.

See, this is why I keep side-eyeing the compulsion aspect of Stefan's current storyline. I see so many people hand-waving everything that Stefan is doing/has done as not his fault because he's compelled. That only works to an extent. Stefan was already killing and assaulting people before he was compelled. And, sure, you can argue that it was justified because he was doing it out of love for Damon and to keep Klaus from discovering that Elena survived, but...is that really okay?

I mean, I love it because I love Stefan/Damon like burning, but what Stefan was doing was still really selfish in a way. He weighed tons of lives against the sole life of Damon and chose Damon. From a moral standpoint, that's a bit not good. It kind of grates that so many people are excusing all of his behavior, especially when they're the same people wanting to crucify Damon for having the same type of priority with Elena last season. He told her that he would always choose her and caught so much hell for it (No, fandom, I don't care what you think, Damon was not TRYING to sacrifice everyone Elena loved. He just meant that if there was absolutely NO OTHER WAY, he would choose Elena. And this was after he helped Bonnie find a way to save herself so he didn't have to make that choice, so whatever).

Plus, now we have the knowledge that a lot of the times Stefan "turned good" weren't exactly his choice. It was Lexi's. Stefan has always been hailed as so great for choosing to be moral and embrace his humanity for his own reasons. That's a big argument I see from a lot of S/E shippers as to why that's a healthier relationship than D/E. They say that Stefan chose to be good for himself, but Damon only chooses it out of love for Elena. But now it seems more like Lexi chose it for Stefan and that only the guilt he felt after he was detoxed made him stay on that path? Or something? I don't know; I don't want to make light of Stefan choosing to stay on the bandwagon once Lexi forced him back on it - that was still commendable and his doing - but it certainly colors the way Stefan has been thought of/presented to us all this time.

I will concede that I understand how Damon's willingness to do anything for love can be unhealthy at times; at some point, you really do have to start living for yourself and not someone else. But at least Damon's love is now selfless - he doesn't expect anything at all from her. And...he doesn't let her dictate all of his behavior. He made it beyond clear that he was not Stefan, that he was a vampire, and she's just going to have to deal with that.

Lol, sorry I wrote all over your journal, but your post gave me so many thoughts.
Arabian: Damon & Elena06arabian on October 28th, 2011 11:56 pm (UTC)
FYI: I added a bit more to the top of the post about Damon/Alaric, Damon/Elena and Stefan/Elena/Rebekah/the necklace after you responded.

this is why I keep side-eyeing the compulsion aspect of Stefan's current storyline. I see so many people hand-waving everything that Stefan is doing/has done as not his fault because he's compelled. That only works to an extent. Stefan was already killing and assaulting people before he was compelled. And, sure, you can argue that it was justified because he was doing it out of love for Damon and to keep Klaus from discovering that Elena survived, but...is that really okay?

No, it's not and that remains my big fear of this season. That all that he did while not under compulsion will be ignored and that is flat-out wrong. And comparatively Damon choosing Elena vs. Stefan choosing Elena as you did is totally on the money. I love this show like whoah! but this is one of those things that really does bug. I'd love to be sure that they will cover this, but alas, I think it's actually the opposite.

Plus, now we have the knowledge that a lot of the times Stefan "turned good" weren't exactly his choice. It was Lexi's.

Really, you got that it was ever his choice? It seems to me that it was ALWAYS Lexi's, which means that he's really, really, really messed up, folks! And this is something that *should* take longer than Elena's best years of her lifetime to help.

Stefan has always been hailed as so great for choosing to be moral and embrace his humanity for his own reasons. That's a big argument I see from a lot of S/E shippers as to why that's a healthier relationship than D/E. They say that Stefan chose to be good for himself, but Damon only chooses it out of love for Elena.

Which ties into the bit I added about Damon/Elena above -- I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA. This helped to confirm my own personal belief that Damon is not changing or becoming better FOR Elena. I think it's BECAUSE of Elena's influence. It's like what Andie said ... love changes a person, makes them better. It's like, for me, Elena has ignited that desire that has always been in Damon to be better, but until he's ready, until he wants to, it's not going to happen. Because he's not doing it for her, he's doing it for him, he's allowing himself that belief that he can be better because he's acknowledging that the desire is there. And that desire has been brought to the forefront because of his love for Elena. But it's about *his* desire to change, and *his* choice to do so.

Damon's decision has always been about DAMON deciding, Elena was an impetus to acknowledge that desire of his -- and one that he was really fighting A LOT in season 02, and is still fighting to a degree, but it's HIS desire. Clearly, such is not the case for Stefan.

I don't want to make light of Stefan choosing to stay on the bandwagon once Lexi forced him back on it - that was still commendable and his doing - but it certainly colors the way Stefan has been thought of/presented to us all this time.

Exactly. And you wanna bet that not one S/E-fan/anti-D/Eer is going to acknowledge that?

I will concede that I understand how Damon's willingness to do anything for love can be unhealthy at times; at some point, you really do have to start living for yourself and not someone else.

And, see that I do disagree with because, well, as stated above -- it's never been ABOUT Elena, it's been about the struggle within himself that Elena's empathy and belief in him has brought to the fore. At least, that's how I've seen it.

Lol, sorry I wrote all over your journal, but your post gave me so many thoughts.

Oh, I never have a problem with that at all. I love the thinky thoughts! :)

Edited at 2011-10-28 11:58 pm (UTC)
(no subject) - marble_rose on October 29th, 2011 07:41 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 31st, 2011 08:05 pm (UTC) (Expand)
archangel_blood: heartbeatsarchangel_blood on October 28th, 2011 11:56 am (UTC)
Not a great episode, IMO. It wasn't bad either, just... underwhelming.

Loved Damon and Alaric, of course. And Caroline.

I also love Jer and Anna with a passion, so... yeah. A little heartbroken all over again. I don't know what it is about them, but they were always my fav couple after DE, they probably share the second spot with SC.

I don't get the whole Lexi hype either. Plus, I enjoy ripper!Stefan, so I didn't appreciate her trying to get through to him and get him back to old boring Stefan. lol

Yeah, where the hell is Kat? Not ok show, give me my Kat back.

Elena... I genuinely like the girl most of the time and her giving up on Stefan would be completely OOC. Still, the repetitiveness of the situation, the "I still have hope" line being uttered again and again every episode is more than a little frustrating. I liked their interactions last week, they had a new snarky vibe to them which I found refreshing, but yesterday it felt like they were back to their old annoying selves.

The lack of DE pretty much sealed it for me - not a great episode.
Arabian: Damon & Elena15arabian on October 29th, 2011 12:04 am (UTC)
I thought it was better than underwhelming. There were plenty of moments that I enjoyed, laughed, teared up, was moved, etc. I just didn't care about the two couples highlighted (Stefan/Elena -- even if it was negative to a degree, and Jeremy/Anna).
I don't get the whole Lexi hype either. Plus, I enjoy ripper!Stefan, so I didn't appreciate her trying to get through to him and get him back to old boring Stefan. lol

Hah!

Still, the repetitiveness of the situation, the "I still have hope" line being uttered again and again every episode is more than a little frustrating. [...] yesterday it felt like they were back to their old annoying selves.

See, now it surprises me that you (and others) are saying that. First of all, yes, she was trying to fix him still, but it made sense that she was grasping at that now because of the possible (and actual) Lexi return -- who brought him back in the past. Then, later, we had the first time EVER where Elena realized that this is NOT good holding onto the memory of Stefan and she flat-out told him that. Again, I go with what I said above, I thought it was telling that when she finally mentioned loving him it was presented as a negative ("I won't love a ghost forever") as opposed to what she would do. She took the first genuine steps in moving on in this episode.

The lack of DE pretty much sealed it for me - not a great episode.

Well, aside from D/E, I do think it was a great episode, it just dinged it for me in overall enjoyment because of lack of D/E. :(
(no subject) - archangel_blood on October 29th, 2011 11:05 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 29th, 2011 08:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Diana: Vampire Diaries -- Rebekahbutterfly on October 28th, 2011 02:53 pm (UTC)
I was just about to post my own response, but I have to say an enthusiastic "yes" to this: In fact, I was kinda uncomfortable watching all the Stefan torture stuff. And since that is how Lexi "fixed" him every time, I'm just not all that into Lexi anymore(she actually really, really annoyed me this episode). I kinda wanted Rebekah to barge in there during all the torture stuff and beat the crap out of Lexi. So disappointed it didn't happen(lol). No wonder the guy fell off the wagon all the time. I mean, he has to do it for himself, not be forced into it. Not taking away all his credit of him being able to steer clear of it for all those years but it seemed like the only reason he was able to was because of the "guilt" of what he had done. :/

I really came away from this episode not liking Lexi.
(no subject) - arabian on October 29th, 2011 12:54 am (UTC) (Expand)
eolivet on October 28th, 2011 02:53 pm (UTC)
See, I always loved Jeremy/Anna for the history -- for the Gilbert man who loved a Mystic Falls vampire, for the retelling of the Jonathan Gilbert/Pearl story, with the children correcting the sins of their ancestors...

Jeremy/Vicki doesn't have the same connotation -- IDK, I trusted the writers on this one. Vicki couldn't have come back for TWO people -- she was the more important to Matt as his sister.

Heck, I'll take "Anna was Jeremy's true love" over "STEFAN CAN RESIST COMPULSION THROUGH TWU WUV" any day of the week... ;)

I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA.

YES!!! Excellent point. :)

Also...could you tell me why Tumblr is saying this is D/E's "anniversary?" What with the what now? :p
Arabian: Damon & Elena09arabian on October 29th, 2011 01:02 am (UTC)
See, I always loved Jeremy/Anna for the history -- for the Gilbert man who loved a Mystic Falls vampire, for the retelling of the Jonathan Gilbert/Pearl story, with the children correcting the sins of their ancestors...

I think if I liked Malese Jow more as an actress, or their chemistry, I could be down with that because I do love the historical parallels, but yeah, they just never really did it for me. :(

Jeremy/Vicki doesn't have the same connotation -- IDK, I trusted the writers on this one. Vicki couldn't have come back for TWO people -- she was the more important to Matt as his sister.

I liked what silviakundera said above, that "Damon's compelling made him move past her death and put him at peace with losing her, so there wasn't that unfinished business that he had going on with Anna. Also, I feel like he should have more perspective now about his choices during the summer before S1/early S1 [...]The whole dysfunctional clusterfuck that was Jeremy/Vicky looks less romantic when you're not always high, self-destructive, and drowning with grief about your parents."

That really helped my take on it. :)

Heck, I'll take "Anna was Jeremy's true love" over "STEFAN CAN RESIST COMPULSION THROUGH TWU WUV" any day of the week... ;)

But I don't think that is what they were saying at all with the compulsion. They made it clear to me that it was about Stefan's hope, and not even the loving Elena aspect (which they already showed is not the case in 3.06). And I commented in the ep-discussion questions on tvdbloodstream, I don't think they are retconning anything. There is LEGITIMATE wiggle room here. Klaus compelled him to turn it off, he didn't compell him to never turn it back on of his own accord. :)

Also...could you tell me why Tumblr is saying this is D/E's "anniversary?" What with the what now? :p

Well, if the Pilot -- the first day of school when Stefan and Elena first "met" -- was their anniversary, then the next episode -- when Damon and Elena first met -- was *their* anniversary. It's ridiculous to say so, but honestly, for Elena to say that the day they met is her and Stefan's anniverary was pretty ridiculous too, so I'm choosing to believe that anyone saying it's D/E's anniversary is either mocking the ridiculous of Elena's comment (or the writers for putting those words in her mouth), or is kinda on the dim side.


Edited at 2011-10-29 02:08 am (UTC)
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Comfort (E/C)butterfly on October 28th, 2011 03:03 pm (UTC)
So, I don't know if it was the complete lack of Damon and Elena (I iz sad!) or that overall this wasn't an overwhelming episode for me, but I don't really have much to say.

Zero Damon/Elena scenes! Sadness.

I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA. This helped to confirm my own personal belief that Damon is not changing or becoming better FOR Elena. I think it's BECAUSE of Elena's influence. It's like what Andie said ... love changes a person, makes them better. It's like, for me, Elena has ignited that desire that has always been in Damon to be better, but until he's ready, until he wants to, it's not going to happen. Because he's not doing it for her, he's doing it for him, he's allowing himself that belief that he can be better because he's acknowledging that the desire is there. And that desire has been brought to the forefront because of his love for Elena. But it's about *his* desire to change, and *his* choice to do so.

Right, I love this. And it kinda stands in direct contrast to Tyler ("Everything I like about me is you") and Stefan (who isn't allowed to chose, most of the time, it seems).

Yes, Stefan's "hope" wasn't smashed to smithereens, but that hope (we know -- something that neither Lexi nor Elena know) is tied up in his love for Rebekah, not Elena. After all, that necklace as a symbol of his hope showed up a LONG time before Elena did, meaning the significance of it as his hope was attached to the vague attachment to Rebekah. So, in addition to it not being about Stefan and Elena's bond, I'm also scoring that as a plus in the 'we will get Stefan/Rebekah explored' column! Booyah!

Yeah, it was his symbol of hope in his darkest time. I loved that. Because, you know, Rebekah and Klaus leaving him and Klaus making him forget them was his darkest time! And her necklace was his hope.

Stefan is an addict, he always will be, there will always be setbacks. He is a vampire who really can not and most definitely SHOULD NOT be with a human. (Which is why Katherine or Rebekah or, oh, I don't know, Caroline would be so much better for him. Yeah, let's go with Caroline in the long run!) So, it would be best for Stefan to let Elena go (as he said he should in episode three of fricking LAST season). On the other hand, Damon has no problem being with a human, and it not effecting who he is or wants to be. (By the way, more on Jeremy and Anna later -- it's not hearts and flowers.)

Stefan says it himself - being with Elena is selfish of him. And him more so than some vampires, because of his lack of control. He really should be with another vampire.

Okay, my favorite ghostly return: PEARL!!!!!!!!! (Damn, Kelly Hu is gorgeous!) I just wish we'd gotten more with her, but I will enjoy my few seconds because I love her so and I will take what I can get! I did like that it meant that both she and Anna would have their peace. (I mean, that's how I took it.)

I think they did. Anna got to kiss Jeremy one last time and then reunite with her mother (and that need was her driving force for 145 years). I think she's at peace now.
Arabian: Elena&Caroline01arabian on October 29th, 2011 01:10 am (UTC)
Zero Damon/Elena scenes! Sadness.

Wah!

[an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA.] Right, I love this. And it kinda stands in direct contrast to Tyler ("Everything I like about me is you") and Stefan (who isn't allowed to chose, most of the time, it seems).

Exactly! Damon's choice is about DAMON. He is fully, completely aware of that and we've had enough commentary along those lines from him -- in 1.20 (with Stefan), 2.12 (with Jessica), 2.13 (with Andie), 2.19 (with Andie), 2.22 (with Elena), 3.04 (with Elena) -- that make it PERFECTLY clear that this is definitively the case with Damon. With Stefan and Tyler, though, it's about choosing for the sake of the women they love (or who force them to, hello, Lexi!).

Yeah, it was his symbol of hope in his darkest time. I loved that. Because, you know, Rebekah and Klaus leaving him and Klaus making him forget them was his darkest time! And her necklace was his hope.

Again, exactly. And I was thinking more about that when responding to others and I think I may have hit upon something else, another parallel of sorts between the brothers. The reason that necklace -- coming from his time with Rebekah and Klaus -- symbolizes hope is maybe because that was a Stefan who chose to turn off his humanity switch and thus still allowed himself to care and feel. By having the necklace symbolize his hope (and us knowing that it's tied to Rebekah), it's possibly about how Stefan realized that even with his Ripper persona intact he could still find someone(s) who loved him. People who could accept him fully for who he is, and something tells me that as much as Damon has never had that, Stefan hasn't had that as a vampire either. So that's the hope part ... but yeah, it's tied into that family unit he found with Rebekah and Klaus.

Stefan says it himself - being with Elena is selfish of him. And him more so than some vampires, because of his lack of control. He really should be with another vampire.

He really, really should be. Damon (and most vampires) do NOT have the blood-addict issues that Stefan does. Stefan can never FULLY be himself with a human, ever!
(no subject) - butterfly on October 29th, 2011 04:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 31st, 2011 08:10 pm (UTC) (Expand)
sassy, classy, and a bit smart-assy: TVD: Elena Damon kitchenbadboy_fangirl on October 28th, 2011 10:36 pm (UTC)
I love that when you "don't have much to say" you still have 2000 words to say. Ha! Yes, I did a word count on this post. What?

As was her storyline with Stefan paralleling Jeremy's with Anna ... which ended with Anna letting Jeremy go because it was what was best for him.
AND HOPE, HOPE, HOPE! This is what I've wanted from the beginning; this is what will show Stefan's character growth, this is what lets my ship happen without destroying everyone's relationships. THIS, PLEASE!

I was really crying by the time Anna saw Pearl. Gosh, I simply love the history of this show, and how they remember all of it. And now I want to rewatch S1 ASAP. Ditto with Grams and Bonnie. BEST EVER. I just loved their scenes.

I also think it's significant that Bonnie compared Jeremy to Matt! Foreshadowing much?

The main ghost/vampire I would have loved to see return? JENNA! Man, they better be saving her for later somehow/someway down the line. JENNA!! WAH!
*wails right along with you* I hope so too. I really want some more pay off with Jenna, both for Elena and Alaric.

And yay for the bromance being back on. Ric's got his drinking buddy back.

He drove up, and both Caroline and Bonnie immediately began walking towards him because you know HE'S THE BOSS!
And this is why Mason chose to target Damon too. He's knows who will get shit done! (As he was once shit that got done.)

- I liked that the only credited guest stars were Malese Jow and Taylor Kinney, ghosts we'd already seen. All of the others were uncredited so even the die-hards didn't exactly know which ones would show up. So cool. (I knew about Lexi, had heard Pearl (!) rumored, but had no clue about Grams or Frederick. (So happy about Grams!)
I loved this too so I could be gasping and surprised and horrified (Frederick all his nasty glory!) over and over. So cool.

Best. Show. Ever.


Edited at 2011-10-28 10:37 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Damon & Elena01arabian on October 29th, 2011 01:36 am (UTC)
I love that when you "don't have much to say" you still have 2000 words to say. Ha! Yes, I did a word count on this post. What?

Man, my long posts are between 5,000 and 7,000 so really, comparatively, it does apply! Really.

ETA: And with a few more edits added in, it's now 2,361. I just ... yeah, short and sweet is clearly nearly impossible for me, LOL!

HOPE, HOPE, HOPE! This is what I've wanted from the beginning; this is what will show Stefan's character growth, this is what lets my ship happen without destroying everyone's relationships. THIS, PLEASE!

YES! Stefan has to realize and accept that he should never be with a human. He really, really shouldn't. Damon (and most vampires) do NOT have the blood-addict issues that Stefan does. Stefan can never FULLY be himself with a human, ever! He's always going to have to be repressing, hiding, denying a part of who he is, and that just isn't good.

I was really crying by the time Anna saw Pearl. Gosh, I simply love the history of this show, and how they remember all of it. And now I want to rewatch S1 ASAP. Ditto with Grams and Bonnie. BEST EVER. I just loved their scenes.

You know, this episode (PEARL!) made me want to do a rewatch as well!

I also think it's significant that Bonnie compared Jeremy to Matt! Foreshadowing much?

They're totally doing something with Matt and Bonnie and after the way dickweed treated Bonnie, I'm all for it. It's not like Kat Graham and Zach Roerig were anti-chemical, so I'm willing to give it a shot because jerky-boy's actions effectively killed the sunshine, rainbows and puppies aspect of the Jeremy/Bonnie pairing. Harumph!

Re: JENNA!! WAH! -- *wails right along with you* I hope so too. I really want some more pay off with Jenna, both for Elena and Alaric.

And Jeremy, who never got to say goodbye either! :(

And this is why Mason chose to target Damon too. He's knows who will get shit done! (As he was once shit that got done.)

Yuppers. That's Damon, yo!

Re: Crediting secrets! -- I loved this too so I could be gasping and surprised and horrified (Frederick all his nasty glory!) over and over. So cool.

Yes,

Best. Show. Ever.

This!

Edited at 2011-10-29 04:20 am (UTC)
vanimy: Elenavanimy on October 29th, 2011 12:03 am (UTC)
Lack of Delena scenes = sad indeed. It even felt like they went out of their way to not make them interact (like with the necklace, Elena asks Caroline to text Damon, why didn't she do it herself?)

-Now, I will concede that this episode did give more hope to the Stefan/Elena contingency that's been seen since the season started, but I still don't think it was much really and can be seen that she's reaching her tether, and their stuff can just as easily be taken as signs that they don't and shouldn't last (see above paragraphs).

I'm kind of torn about this. Watching it really made me fear we were back to Stefan and Elena's epiiiiiic love and I'm tired of that (and the lack of Delena interaction didn't help). Thank God for that ending scene because that made me hope the Stelena relationship wasn't back to square one all over again (I'm sick and tired of hearing Elena say 'I still have hope' ugh). I really hope that necklace really doesn't symbolize the Stelena relationship anymore and we'll see something happening with Klaus/Rebekah because I felt like other than it being a plot point, they were saying, 'heh, necklace isn't destroyed, Stelena's going to survive everything.' Ugh.


- Especially since I like Elena A LOT more than Lexi. Yeah, I still ... I just don't get it. I do not get the Lexi love. Nope.

I really liked her before (wasn't a fan but thought she was cool) but she grated on my nerves in this episode. And why is still still so involved with Stefan? I cracked up when he told her she obviously had nothing better to do than help him detox, because so true.

-Re : Jeremy. I think I'm biased but I didn't think he was a douchebag (yeah I'm a Jeremy/Anna shipper), poor boy lost so many people, I just get it. And since I didn't feel any build-up to the Bonnie/Jeremy relationship I'm not really involved with them as a couple so *shrugs* I always felt Jeremy loved Anna genuinely so I wasn't surprised he said he loved her. Vicki to me was always a distraction from his grief and their relationship was really really unhealthy (I don't think Vicky ever gave a rat's ass about Jeremy on top of that) so I'm not surprised he doesn't give her the time of day. He was totally wrong for doing what he did to Bonnie, really really wrong, but I get why he did it. It's one person he loved he can see and touch again. So I wasn't hating on Jeremy, but again it's probably because I'm not really a Jeremy/Bonnie shipper.

-Totally agree on Ric and Damon. How adorable are they? They really helped me like this episode more than I would've if their relationship hadn't been addressed.

- I was sad that Damon clearly doesn't trust Liz enough to call her though :(

I think it's understandable he does trust her to a certain point but this scene was about who he trusted with his life and it makes sense there's only Elena and Ric on that list (note his own Not!Ripper!brother isn't even in there but it all dates back to their issues from 1864).

- Speaking of those three characters, it was weird seeing Bonnie and Caroline rifling through his room, I don't know why, but it was.

OMG I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that! I was like 'Hey, respect his privacy!'
Arabian: Elena05arabian on October 29th, 2011 02:13 am (UTC)
Lack of D/E scenes = sad indeed. It even felt like they went out of their way to not make them interact (like with the necklace, Elena asks Caroline to text Damon, why didn't she do it herself?)

Obviously I always treasure D/E scenes, BUT, with this episode I'm actually happy about it because of the Damon/redemption/better man stuff. Like I said at the top of my post, I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA. So I can so deal with that. As for Elena not doing it herself? Honestly, I choose to believe it's because things are getting to a boiling point with Damon and since she was trying to *save* Stefan, she probably didn't want to be distracted by her hot, burning-like-lava desire for Damon. Hahaha.

I'm sick and tired of hearing Elena say 'I still have hope' ugh).

See, I'm reading that a lot, but I just don't get where this is coming from. (I iz weird, I know!) Elena doesn't give up, she's incredibly loyal. And that last scene really did put the twist on it all, and was a HUGE step for Elena. Yes, she was trying to fix him still, but it made sense that she was grasping at that now because of the possible (and actual) Lexi return -- who brought him back in the past. Then, of course, later, we had the first time EVER where Elena realized that this is NOT good holding onto the memory of Stefan and she flat-out told him that. Again, I go with what I said above, I thought it was telling that when she finally mentioned loving him it was presented as a negative ("I won't love a ghost forever") as opposed to what she would do. She took the first genuine steps in moving on in this episode. I thought they had a big enough reason for her to re-iterate that hope (Lexi's appearance) which was necessary to get to that beat with her deciding enough was enough.

I really hope that necklace really doesn't symbolize the S/E relationship anymore [...] 'heh, necklace isn't destroyed, S/E going to survive everything.' Ugh.

I don't understand how it can now. First we learned it was Rebekah's, then it burned Elena's skin and she took it off -- AFTER Damon called it the symbol of her unbreakable bond with Stefan. Then after the events of "The Reckoning," she didn't want it back, and in this episode, Lexi flat-out said it was a symbol of his hope. We know that hope is tied up in Rebekah and that was a Stefan who *chose* to turn off his humanity, so he still allowed himself to care and feel. By having the necklace symbolize his hope (and it being tied to Rebekah), it could be about Stefan realzing that even with his Ripper persona intact he could still find someone(s) who loved him. Accept him fully for who he is. Something tells me that as much as Damon has never had that, Stefan hasn't had that as a vampire either. With all that's been attached to it this season, it's clear to me that it does NOT symbolize S/E. The reforming of it was about Stefan's hope not being crushed to bits, and that hope connected to the necklace is because of Rebekah, not Elena.

Re: Jeremy -- Yeah, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree because I did like the J/B build-up and their relationship way more than I ever liked J/A. As for J/V, I liked what silviakundera said above, that "Damon's compelling made him move past her death and put him at peace with losing her, so there wasn't that unfinished business that he had going on with Anna. Also, I feel like he should have more perspective now about his choices during the summer before S1/early S1 [...]The whole dysfunctional clusterfuck that was J/V looks less romantic when you're not always high, self-destructive, and drowning with grief about your parents."

That really helped my take on it. :)

Re: C/B in Damon's room -- OMG I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that! I was like 'Hey, respect his privacy!'

Well, that wasn't what I meant. They NEEDED to find that necklace, Damon told them it was in his room obviously, so of course they were going to tear it apart. Damon would have done the same thing. I just thought it was weird seeing Caroline and Bonnie IN his room. Don't know why.

Edited at 2011-10-29 02:14 am (UTC)
(no subject) - vanimy on October 30th, 2011 12:01 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on October 31st, 2011 08:26 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Heather-Annlinsell_farm on October 30th, 2011 01:47 am (UTC)
This helped to confirm my own personal belief that Damon is not changing or becoming better FOR Elena. I think it's BECAUSE of Elena's influence.

Great insight, Jenn and one that I'm completely on board with. It is important to me that Damon's redemption is of his OWN volition. Yes, Elena was the catalyst and certainly supports him on this path, but, as you said, he's not doing it FOR her.

...it was about what she wouldn't do, not what she would...

Good point. That does seem significant that her perspective has shifted to what she won't do. That feels like the beginning of her thinking in terms of letting him go.

So, it would be best for Stefan to let Elena go (as he said he should in episode three of fricking LAST season).

Oooh! Great memory you have there, Jenn. :D At least now it's being shown just exactly how much Stefan should NOT be with a human (and should be with Caroline). This is yet another reason for the awesomeness of DE - being with Elena brings out the BEST in Damon, while her presence is one of the things that brings out the worst in Stefan.

By having the necklace symbolize his hope (and us knowing that it's tied to Rebekah), it's possibly about how Stefan realized that even with his Ripper persona intact he could still find someone(s) who loved him.

I like this, alot. You're full of great insights tonight. Having had unconditional love when he was human, it must have been very traumatic to lose that as a vampire, and would lead to him to clinging to the hope that he'd find it again. It's easy to go from there to him associating it with Rebekah's necklace.

Okay, my favorite ghostly return: PEARL!!!!!!!!! (Damn, Kelly Hu is gorgeous!)

She is smoking hot. It was wonderful that we got to see Anna and her mama have that moment.

Caroline even in a small role was just all-around awesome. Love her.

I'm definitely developing a crush on her. She is just so awesome and gorgeous.

Of course, my pain for lack of character-age was pretty much all tied up in NO REBEKAH!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

IKR? It was rather strange given that she was there infiltrating Caroline's life last episode and then gone without a word in this one :S

Dude! I want to see how Queen Kat gets herself out of this one.

EXACTLY! BC we all know that she's getting out of this somehow!!

Ooh, ooh, I loved Caroline's "Miss Sheila." So Southern.

Candice had just the right inflection in her delivery of that line. Yum. There's just something inherently charming about the Southern way of speaking (spoken like the true Canuck that I am ;)
Arabian: Damon & Elena15arabian on October 31st, 2011 08:36 pm (UTC)
It is important to me that Damon's redemption is of his OWN volition. Yes, Elena was the catalyst and certainly supports him on this path, but, as you said, he's not doing it FOR her.

Exactly. I do not get why so many people continue to insist that he's only doing it for her when he have actual dialogue canonical proof that he is not.

[...it was about what she wouldn't do, not what she would...] That does seem significant that her perspective has shifted to what she won't do. That feels like the beginning of her thinking in terms of letting him go.

That's certainly how I took it!

Re: Stefan letting Elena go said in 2.03 -- Great memory you have there, Jenn.

That just ALWAYS stood out to me SO MUCH, so I love that we're basically getting complete and utter proof of that.

This is yet another reason for the awesomeness of DE - being with Elena brings out the BEST in Damon, while her presence is one of the things that brings out the worst in Stefan.

Exactly! :)

Having had unconditional love when [Stefan] was human, it must have been very traumatic to lose that as a vampire, and would lead to him to clinging to the hope that he'd find it again. It's easy to go from there to him associating it with Rebekah's necklace.

Yes! And I really, really hope that I'm right about that! I really, really do.

IKR? It was rather strange given that [Rebekah] was there infiltrating Caroline's life last episode and then gone without a word in this one :S

Well, I didn't think it was weird that she wasn't there. This clearly all took place the following morning/day, and Caroline was with Bonnie helping out as opposed to hanging with Tyler, and Rebekah was either caught up with Tyler, or was back at the Boarding House having no clue where Stefan or Damon were. I just missed her lots cuz I love her!
distant_autumn: Bonnie - floating feathers by snaggingdistant_autumn on November 1st, 2011 08:27 pm (UTC)
I liked A LOT that in an episode that talked about Damon, mentioned redemption, etc., and Damon making a positive choice to let someone in, be the better "man" (to Ric), it had NOTHING TO DO WITH ELENA.

Yeah, I totally agree. And I think it's really important that that's the case. It can't be about that, not if it's going to be real and lasting, and I'm so glad the show gets that. (Even though I obviously missed the D/E interaction.)

Elena has ignited that desire that has always been in Damon to be better, but until he's ready, until he wants to, it's not going to happen. Because he's not doing it for her, he's doing it for him, he's allowing himself that belief that he can be better because he's acknowledging that the desire is there. And that desire has been brought to the forefront because of his love for Elena. But it's about *his* desire to change, and *his* choice to do so.

Yup, all of this.

I felt that even the 'good' stuff with them wasn't all that good.

Yeah. I mean, I keep expecting them to really go for it with S/E just by virtue of the type of story it is and S/E not actually being over with. And yet it just keeps not happening to any great extent. (Yay! :D)

the symbol of his hope wasn't destroyed

And how much do I love that that symbol was something that belonged to Rebekah? And that it was something he clung to during his darkest hour?

(and funny how the necklace is now the symbol of Stefan's hope -- as opposed to the unbreakable bond between Stefan and Elena),

Absolutely. The shifting symbolism of that necklace this season has been fascinating.

her storyline with Stefan paralleling Jeremy's with Anna ... which ended with Anna letting Jeremy go because it was what was best for him.

And because it was best for her, too. And in the end, what was most important to Anna? Finding peace with her mother. Which given all the other parallels between the stories, seems telling in terms of where Stefan's may be headed. He needs to find peace within himself, and he needs to truly reunite with Damon. That's Stefan's happy ending, to me.

He is a vampire who really can not and most definitely SHOULD NOT be with a human.

Yeah, it's not advisable on many levels, I think. And you know I am with you about who he should be with! ;)

Yes, Stefan's "hope" wasn't smashed to smithereens, but that hope (we know -- something that neither Lexi nor Elena know) is tied up in his love for Rebekah, not Elena. After all, that necklace as a symbol of his hope showed up a LONG time before Elena did, meaning the significance of it as his hope was attached to the vague attachment to Rebekah.

And I'm just saying, there kinda of is a nice tie in there, to the fact that for a long time there Rebekah seemed lost to him too, and yet actually isn't.

I'm also scoring that as a plus in the 'we will get Stefan/Rebekah explored' column! Booyah!

Hee, me too! It really delighted me in a shippy S/R sense.

they are REALLY laying it on thick now in equating Lexi (Stefan's lifelong PLATONIC friend) with Elena.

IKR? I feel so validated!

PEARL!!!!!!!!! (Damn, Kelly Hu is gorgeous!) I just wish we'd gotten more with her, but I will enjoy my few seconds because I love her so and I will take what I can get! I did like that it meant that both she and Anna would have their peace. (I mean, that's how I took it.)

I took it to mean the same thing, and I absolutely adored that moment. So happy to see Pearl again (even if only briefly) and so happy that in their own way, they finally did get their happy ending together after all that time.

I loved that the connection was still there, so strong, so beautiful between her and Bonnie. I loved how this new writer to the show seamlessly captured the character and her relationship with Bonnie. The first scene had me smiling through teary eyes, and when she took her hand at the end, and they spouted Latin together and then she told Bonnie that she was "stronger than all of this. I'm so proud of you," I was like ooh, so beautiful. LOVE!

Yes yes yes to all of this. They handled it so wonderfully.
Arabian: Jeremy & Bonnie02arabian on November 1st, 2011 11:41 pm (UTC)
And I think it's really important that [Damon being the better man-non Elena is] the case. It can't be about that, not if it's going to be real and lasting, and I'm so glad the show gets that.

Yes, and of course it will be completely ignored by the Damon haters and S/E fans who still maintain that Damon is evil, unredeemable and is so not worthy of Elena because he's only changing for her, not because he wants to. :rolls eyes:

(Even though I obviously missed the D/E interaction.)

I hope we get some good stuff in this next episode, but if there is a major Damon/Stefan shift that helps Stefan get his humanity back on, I'm thinking we're gonna be stuck with Stefan/Elena-ness, yucky! :(

I mean, I keep expecting them to really go for it with S/E just by virtue of the type of story it is and S/E not actually being over with. And yet it just keeps not happening to any great extent. (Yay! :D)

Sigh, I think it's coming up. I was really hopeful that the next few episodes would be heavy D/E, but now I'm thinking they will be S/E heavy. We knew it was coming, I'll just be gutted if that's what we have going into the hiatus. :(

in the end, what was most important to Anna? Finding peace with her mother. Which given all the other parallels between the stories, seems telling in terms of where Stefan's may be headed. He needs to find peace within himself, and he needs to truly reunite with Damon. That's Stefan's happy ending, to me.

Agreed; I would absolutely love that because, again, nothing the show has shown me indicates anything other than Damon >>>>> Everyone else, and anyone who doesn't see that is willfully deluding themselves. Even my sister who only watches this show as a casual viewer (and who scoffed at my belief about that) changed her tune after last season's finale. After that, she agreed with me that it was Damon first for Stefan.

I'm just saying, there kinda of is a nice tie in there, to the fact that for a long time there Rebekah seemed lost to him too, and yet actually isn't.

Aww, Stefan/Rebekah-ness! SQUEE! I want!

Re: equating Lexi (Stefan's lifelong PLATONIC friend) with Elena -- IKR? I feel so validated!

You should. Hopefully it sticks!
(no subject) - distant_autumn on November 3rd, 2011 06:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on November 4th, 2011 01:07 am (UTC) (Expand)
distant_autumn: Damon by ebsolutelydistant_autumn on November 1st, 2011 08:36 pm (UTC)
Part 2
Per my notes: Jeremy is a dick, a douche and a dirtbag.

LOL! I honestly sympathised with Jeremy, but this still cracked me up.

Not one regret that he didn't see Vicki again, didn't get to touch her? I don't deny that he did care greatly, even loved Anna, but to just completely ignore the importance of Vicki? Not cool.

Yeah, I don't disagree with what silviakundera said, but I still found it weird when they just had him so casually refer to Vicki like she was just any other random person. Like... I can buy things like the compulsion having had an impact, I can buy him seeing things more clearly with more distance from the situation. Plus he lost Anna more recently. And she has made more of an effort to reconnect with him while Vicki focused more on Matt. So for all those reasons and more, I can absolutely understand why it is Anna to whom he has gotten so reattached. But still and all, when they had him sit there and talk about Vicki like he had no emotional connection to her whatsoever? It still felt odd to me.

I was SO glad that Bonnie told him that he had to respect her enough to not bother explaining it to her because she was right.

Yeah. I so loved that she found the strength to say her goodbye to him this episode, because it has become increasingly clear that she really did lose him back in 2.22. Her doing what he couldn't, making the break and demanding he give her that respect, was such a beautiful, strong moment for her.

I'll be perfectly happy with it in retrospect if it's helping to foreshadow Elena letting Stefan go, though!

Hee, lets hope so. One other thing I thought was interesting, amidst all the J/A and S/E parallels that were going on, was that as much as she cared for Jeremy, in the end it was actually about Pearl for Anna and being properly reuinited. Because the obvious parallel there is Stefan finding the actual peace he seeks in being reuinited with Damon, rather than Elena.

It was kinda cool to see nasty ole Frederick!

Wasn't it? I was surprised how much I enjoyed that little additional nod to S1. Him popping up again to be all horrible worked really well. And yeah, I LOVED Caroline just taking charge there.

The main ghost/vampire I would have loved to see return? JENNA! Man, they better be saving her for later somehow/someway down the line. JENNA!! WAH!

I know! It was definitely interesting that they left a question mark over her and several others (e.g. John, Isobel, etc.) because it really does allow them to do something with them in the future, if they so wish. So yeah, especially with Jenna, I really hope they will.

"You're not my friend. I don't like you anymore." Could he have been any less convincing? Could he have sounded any less like a five-year old?

Hee, I love that we both made the same five year old comment! :D And yeah, it was such an absolutely priceless line. I was also as puzzled as you were by Ric's claim that he'd tried to kill him. I really don't think Damon was at all subtle with his temporary funeral comment. So yeah, very odd.

I still am kinda really pissed off that there was no acknowledgment that Ric was a dick to Damon

Yup. Very happy they've made up, glad that Damon did essentially say sorry, but the truth is, Ric wasn't exactly without fault in the lead up to their falling out.

Damon's smile at Ric, telling him that he didn't mean the crappy, recycled apology when he gave it to Mason. I was just ... aww, I love these two so much. Yay! Yay! Yay!!!!!

I knooooow! That entire little bit made me so happy. And just, the combined awkwardness of him sincerely saying it to Ric and then afterwards him getting all smirky and charming about it and Ric totally caving! So great.

I do wonder what we'll happen now if Ric walks in on any Damon/Elena moments since he is acknowledging that he is Damon's BFF again. Hmm.....

Me too. It'll be interesting to see if it's going to remain a source of tension between them, or if (especially having been witness to so much of her recent interaction with Stefan) Ric's gained a new perspective on it.


Arabian: Damon05arabian on November 1st, 2011 11:46 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 2
Re: Jeremy is a dick, a douche and a dirtbag. -- LOL! I honestly sympathised with Jeremy, but this still cracked me up.

Hee. Truly that is what I'd written in my notes.

Yeah, I don't disagree with what silviakundera said, but I still found it weird when they just had him so casually refer to Vicki like she was just any other random person.

I do think they dropped the ball a bit there. It's like they were so concentrated on the Anna aspect of the story, that they ignored the Vicki history.

One other thing I thought was interesting, amidst all the J/A and S/E parallels that were going on, was that as much as she cared for Jeremy, in the end it was actually about Pearl for Anna and being properly reuinited. Because the obvious parallel there is Stefan finding the actual peace he seeks in being reuinited with Damon, rather than Elena.

You mentioned this above, and I do see it here. In fact, I wonder if we'll get even a look, or *something* if Damon DOES break through to Stefan soon enough from Elena where she kinda gets it, that yeah, at the end of the day -- Damon is more important, means more to Stefan than Elena does.

I know! It was definitely interesting that they left a question mark over her and several others (e.g. John, Isobel, etc.) because it really does allow them to do something with them in the future, if they so wish. So yeah, especially with Jenna, I really hope they will.

I still don't see John belonging in this category, he did actually go out as in peace -- probably more than any other character EVER on this show, but the others? Definitely.

Hee, I love that we both made the same five year old comment! :D

I know, the exact same age. Hah!

glad that Damon did essentially say sorry, but the truth is, Ric wasn't exactly without fault in the lead up to their falling out.M

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm pretty convinced that Damon is the bad guy is always going to the mindset for not only the show characters, but the writers and so even if the other person is possibly wrong (alone, or even alongside Damon), only Damon will get dinged. *sigh*

Re: Ric seeing D/E now -- Me too. It'll be interesting to see if it's going to remain a source of tension between them, or if (especially having been witness to so much of her recent interaction with Stefan) Ric's gained a new perspective on it.

I would be SO thrilled if we were to get some acknowledgement of that because it would be frickin' nice!
Re: Part 2 - distant_autumn on November 3rd, 2011 06:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part 2 - arabian on November 4th, 2011 01:10 am (UTC) (Expand)
distant_autumn: DE - On the road by imaginary_livesdistant_autumn on November 1st, 2011 08:49 pm (UTC)
Part 3
I was sad that Damon clearly doesn't trust Liz enough to call her though

Aww, I know! :(

I really, really, really hate Damon's hair.

Yeah, IDEK what is going on with it at this point. I have long since abandoned my defense of the hair and make-up team. I can only boggle at their decision making.

Caroline even in a small role was just all-around awesome.

I enjoyed every single thing they did with her this episode, from being a great friend to going to rescue Carol. So much love.

I'm still waiting for acknowledgement from the peanut gallery that Stefan is actually worse than Damon.

Me too. Plus, honestly? I find the entire non-reaction most of them are having to this stuff bizarre, given that he's murdering people, hospitalised Elena, and is now harrassing her. I really hope they're deliberately waiting to do something with the issue of how everyone feels about Stefan these days. Both in general and in terms of what this past couple of months has made them think about the whole good brother/bad brother BS they've all bought into.

I will say that I was surprised that Bonnie uttered the words "Damon is right" and that neither she nor Caroline trash-talked Damon even after he left.

Because Bonnie is basically okay with him now! (Look, I am enjoying that belief while I can until the show proves me wrong, okay? :P)

I do wonder if anyone else was as amused as I was that he didn't have to say a word. He drove up, and both Caroline and Bonnie immediately began walking towards him

Oh, I know. Stuff like that is so incredibly telling in terms of how they see his role in their group, whether they'd be particularly eager to admit to it or not.

Speaking of those three characters, it was weird seeing Bonnie and Caroline rifling through his room, I don't know why, but it was.

I am such a weirdo, because I totally enjoyed that. IDEK why, except that I felt like there was some sense of increased comfort with each other, that they felt it'd be okay to do that and weren't uncomfortable in his space.

my pain for lack of character-age was pretty much all tied up in NO REBEKAH!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

I KNOW! I hope the writers understand that she is NEVER ALLOWED TO LEAVE OMG. Because she totally, totally isn't.

Or Katherine?!?!? What, they're just gonna leave us hanging?!?! Dude! I want to see how Queen Kat gets herself out of this one.

IKR? We got Mason alluding to the Mikael thing not having turned out well, but they totally ducked explaining exactly what that meant. So yeah, they are TOTALLY enjoying leaving us hanging.

(I know it really wouldn't have fitted in with the general theme, but I still kinda wish they could've done this episode while Katherine was around, because I would've liked seeing her meet up with a ghost from her past. Ah, well.)

I guess Lexi's hallucination-effect on Stefan is further proof that vamps can do that to each other. We've seen it with Damon (to Stefan early on, and then Rose on her deathbed) and Katherine (to Stefan) and Stefan (to Katherine).

Have we ever seen them do it while awake before? I can't recall. (I'm not objecting to them making it a thing, I just can't remember it.)

I did love Mason's line that he knows Damon would do anything for his brother, awww.

Aww, I know! He knew where it was at. And Damon didn't even bother denying it. Aww.

Ooh, ooh, I loved Caroline's "Miss Sheila." So Southern.

I loved that Caroline was so happy to see her and vice versa! It just spoke to a wealth of history between this characters and also, it was adorable.

PEARL! I got to see PEARL! again! :D

And it was glorious, if all too brief!

Arabian: Damon & Elena01arabian on November 1st, 2011 11:52 pm (UTC)
Re: Part 3
IDEK what is going on with it at this point. I have long since abandoned my defense of the hair and make-up team. I can only boggle at their decision making.

I swear they've made a vow to see if it's possible to uglify this pretty, pretty cast starting with the prettiest of them all!

I enjoyed every single thing they did with [Caroline] this episode, from being a great friend to going to rescue Carol. So much love.

This!

honestly? I find the entire non-reaction most of them are having to this stuff bizarre, given that he's murdering people, hospitalised Elena, and is now harrassing her. I really hope they're deliberately waiting to do something with the issue of how everyone feels about Stefan these days. Both in general and in terms of what this past couple of months has made them think about the whole good brother/bad brother BS they've all bought into.

VERY, VERY true. I want this sooooooooooooo badly. And if that is never brought up, I'm going to be VERY disappointed in the show because this is a fucking biggie!

Because Bonnie is basically okay with him now! (Look, I am enjoying that belief while I can until the show proves me wrong, okay? :P)

Sure, I'll go with it, but I will be constantly wary because of stupid DB now. :(

I am such a weirdo, because I totally enjoyed that

I didn't not enjoy it, I was amused by it, but I still just thought it was ... weird. Probably because we're supposed to believe they have issues with him so deep-seated still (see: Caroline in DB, possibly Bonnie when they randomly decide to go there), but yet, they were totally comfortable rummaging around in his room. It's not like we saw Caroline "make up" with Damon, so yeah, that's where it came from.

I hope the writers understand that she is NEVER ALLOWED TO LEAVE OMG. Because she totally, totally isn't.

I was just thinking this. I don't care if she's bad -- although, honestly, we never saw HER do anything beyond drinking a few times and not be horrified by Stefan's actions -- she needs to stick around forever. And, of course, the couple girl in me is like but who will she wind up with ... Ric? Matt? Jeremy?? Tyler? A previously unrevealed character yet?

We got Mason alluding to the Mikael thing not having turned out well, but they totally ducked explaining exactly what that meant. So yeah, they are TOTALLY enjoying leaving us hanging.

I know, grrr.

Have we ever seen them do it while awake before? I can't recall.

Apparently Rose was asleep, but I don't know, I could have sworn she was awake during part of Damon's dreamscape, but crowandfog said she was asleep and I didn't rewatch the clip to verify. Either way, it's the only thing that makes sense so I'm willing to go with it.
Re: Part 3 - distant_autumn on November 3rd, 2011 06:28 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: Part 3 - arabian on November 4th, 2011 01:12 am (UTC) (Expand)