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18 February 2011 @ 10:48 pm
I've got a theory ...  
And Damon/Elena shippers probably won't like it.

So, in my review of the latest episode of The Vampire Diaries, I had the thought pop into my head about Damon and Elena that I'm 90% sure that he is on the list of people that she has under her protection, but I'm not totally sure for two reasons. 1) We had Elijah very specifically mention that Alaric was on that list, and then 2) we had Elijah very specifically mention that the ONLY reason he was keeping Damon alive was because he believes that he'll do all he can to protect Elena, ie., no mention of him being on Elena's list. That possibility, coupled with her less than a passing interest in Damon's possible death, plus the fact that Damon called her on her similarity to Katherine way back in "Bad Moon Rising," paired with the (I'm wondering now) perhaps intentional manipulation in "Daddy Issues," makes me wonder if we'll find out that Elena hasn't forgiven him for what he did to Jeremy after all, but is instead using his feelings for her to help keep everyone she does love alive.

It wouldn't be out of character for Elena -- she did easily lie and betray him last season circa "Children of the Damned" and she has more reason now -- and it would certainly throw us all for a loop. I'm not saying I'd like it, but it'd be in character, make sense, and explain why we're seeing so little breakdown in Stefan/Elena, which needs to happen before anything with Damon and Elena can happen. And also, so little reaction from Elena about Damon in any way in scenes *other* than with Damon alone. So, in fact, we may be no where near Damon/Elena happening this season. However, if this *is* happening, I am okay with it, if it plays out fair and square and we start to see actual movement towards the end of the season -- maybe Elena seeing Damon coming this close to dying making her truly begin to forgive him -- or next season. I don't know, just a thought.

It was discounted by a few people for various reasons in response, and a few of those points made me go back and rewatch scenes, rethink things, and what wound up happening is that I became more convinced that I might just be onto something here. Let me list why.

1) In episode 15, Elijah VERY specifically told Alaric that he was on Elena's list of those to be protected. ("Alaric Saltzman. You're one of those people on Elena's list of loved ones to protect.") He just as very specifically told Damon that the only reason he was keeping him alive is because Damon is willing to protect Elena at whatever cost. ("I allow you {points to Damon} to live solely to keep an eye on Elena.") So we had the specificity of Alaric being named as on Elena's list, and we also had the specificity of Elijah telling Damon of a sole reason that he wasn't killing him ... and it had nothing to do with being on Elena's list.

Now, he did tell Damon before entering the boarding house that, "although, Elena and I have this deal, if you so as much make a move to cross me, I'll kill you and I'll kill everyone in this house." However, killing Damon could have absolutely nothing to do with the deal with Elena ... killing Jenna and Alaric, who Elijah knows is in the house, on the other hand, would. It's splitting hairs, but that statement does allow wiggle room that Damon himself is not included in the deal.

2) A response said that Elijah had told Damon he was on Elena's protect list. So I went back and watched the Elijah scenes in the only episode that such a statement could have been made in (2.15, "Crying Wolf," the only episode since Elena made the deal that Elijah has appeared in before 2.16). This was the exact dialogue in that scene:
    Damon: You can't kill me, man. It's not part of the deal.
    Elijah: Silence. I'm an original. Show a little respect. The moment you cease to be of use to me, you're dead. So, you should do what I say. Keep Elena safe.
In other words, *Damon* said that not killing him was part of the deal, but Elijah not only did not confirm that, he ignored the statement and essentially made the same comment (using a different turn of phrase) that he did in this most recent episode: The only reason he isn't killing Damon is because Damon will do whatever he can to keep Elena safe.

3) Damon DID snap Jeremy's neck, and Elena DID tell Damon he'd lost her forever. Upon which he told her that she had more in common with Katherine than just her looks. Going into more detail about my earlier thoughts from the episode review, I'll say that at the time, I thought Elena's reaction and considering look was upset at the notion, now I'm wondering if that considering look was because, well, she was considering the possibility that she could use Damon's feelings to her advantage. As she has. Note how she was plenty angry with him UNTIL after she made the deal with Elijah specifically in "By the Light of the Moon." It was in the next episode ("The Descent") that she suddenly is "his friend" again, waiting for him with a drink, giving him a hug. And then in "Daddy Issues," she had a knowing smirk on her face after getting him to be the better man when they first arrived at the Grille.

She was also emotionally manipulating him (which Damon called her on). Now, originally, I thought that it wasn't intentional, but we know that Elena will do things to protect those she loves. Damon is, for all intents and purposes, the leader of the group. He appears to make many of the final decisions for the group, or they at least run things by him. If Elena wants to protect those in the group (and out of it, ie. Jenna and Matt), then she has to keep Damon on a leash, essentially. Playing the Katherine card and getting him to do what she wants to protect her friends and family is not that outside the realm of believable character actions. And considering the intent behind such actions, it's nothing like the selfish, self-serving manner in which Katherine played him. It truly is for a more noble cause.

4) After "The Descent," I said about Damon's actions: In her desire to make him be the better person he can be, she doesn't realize that his response is to fight that and so he lashes out, he does bad things, he retaliates in the worst way he can. The good thing is that it's getting harder and harder for him to do that. First, he went cold and bitter and snapped Jeremy's neck, the pain and regret came afterward. Now, he was drunk and broken, devastated by the choice he felt he *had* to make to not be in pain anymore. Yes, he committed the act, but the pain and regret was with him the entire time, before, during and after. Next time -- because you so know there is going to be a next time -- I think he'll make the right call at last. He won't commit the unforgivable (or close to it) act.

I wonder if in the second to last or last episode of this season if it will come out that Damon was never on her list to protect, that Elena (at this point) still believes that she will never forgive him for what he did, and that he has indeed lost her forever (she believes). That then would send him on another emotional tailspin, and instead of lashing out and killing someone, this time, he doesn't do so. This time he makes that conscious choice to NOT go there despite his pain. And, while if Elena is doing this, it can not even remotely compare to the terrible things that Damon has done, however, it does put them on a more even playing ground in terms of devastating the other emotionally.

5) This is so the kind of emotionally shocking thing that The Vampire Diaries does, and if this is a season-long arc resulting from Damon's actions in "The Return," it does lend credence to Kevin Williamson's comment that this season is about Damon and Elena's relationship. It's just not the development we were expecting (or hoping for), LOL!

I don't know, I could be COMPLETELY wrong. After all, there are a few scenes that don't quite work -- Elena emphatically including Damon (by look) not once, but twice in "The Sacrifice" about not wanting the people she loves/cares about to be hurt ... but since she never said it, just implied (as she was trying to get him to do what she wanted, even pre-deal with Elijah, it was on the same lines) and so very well could have been a red herring. Also, her comment that she didn't forgive John for what he did to Stefan and Damon in "Daddy Issues." However, even if Elena is doing this, I don't think it negates that she *does* feel something deeper for Damon that she simply will not and can not acknowledge, and it comes out in moments of fear, panic worry, etc. without her thinking about it, ie, her emotional, overwrought response to John playing the daddy role.

Again, I don't know, I could be totally off-base, but I think it's an interesting theory and not only makes sense character-wise, it actually makes *more* sense when taking into account the fact that she's seemingly forgiven Damon for SNAPPING HER BROTHER'S NECK RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER! So, I don't know. Call me crazy, but it's just a theory that's taken root in my brain. Please feel free to completely dissuade me from this notion!
 
 
 
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Damon/Elenabutterfly on February 19th, 2011 04:02 am (UTC)
Hmm. I'm not sure that's something that can be disproved (as any counter evidence could be placed in the 'Elena is manipulating Damon/Elena is not aware that she cares even though she has consciously not forgiven Damon' file). It doesn't... feel right to me, from what we've seen so far, but this show pulls emotional twists sometimes.

Hmm, though. Something to think about.

Edited at 2011-02-19 04:07 am (UTC)
Mitten: Damonsugarsyringe on February 19th, 2011 04:16 am (UTC)
That's very interesting.
I hadn't conscidered it at first but now that you mention it, I must agree that it makes perfect sense. It wouldn't be out of character for Elena either.
As much as a damon-elena shipper that I am though... I don't know... I'm not shocked. I simply wonder where the show is going to take us! :)
We can expect anything to happen, really! (perhaps something completely different too!) It's rather exciting.
crowandfogcrowandfog on February 19th, 2011 06:16 am (UTC)
I don't want to jump off the bridge and say that I think this is what's happening, but I certainly think it's plausible. And, frankly, it would be brilliant story-telling and would, once again, take this show to the next level. I remember that KW interview, and there are times when I've felt like he was misleading us because the Stefan and Elena relationship is still clearly very strong. (Grrr.) I've also read that KW and JP actually had the entire season and part of season three already mapped out very early on. If this is what they are doing, it is genius. I ship Damon/Elena, but I love this show because the SHOW is awesome. If I just want to watch an angsty relationship, I can turn on my TV to any drama at random, y'know?

You already know that I agree with you regarding Elijah's careful wording and never explictly stating that Damon is meant to be protected. I think it's interesting that we DON'T know for sure who is on the list (besides Alaric who has now been specifically mentioned). For example, is Tyler on the list? Is that why he wasn't mass aneurysm-ed with the rest of the wolves? Or was it because he wasn't actively attacking anyone at the time? We can assume that he was listed, but we don't actually know.

After "Daddy Issues," I read several different comments in which people called attention to this expression:

TVD213 Elena?  Is that you?

I have to say that it looks a lot more like an expression that belongs on Kat's face than Elena's, and considering how careful Nina has been to keep the two characters distinct, it's just as plausible as not that it was no accident. I was very surprised in general by the lack of personal space between Damon and Elena when they entered the Grill. Earlier in the season she was so quick to move away from him, and even in recent episodes (until the hug) I don't think she stood THAT close to him.

Re: "including the two of you." That's one of the few episodes in the series that, in retrospect, makes me wish I had always been writing my own reaction posts on LJ. I was excited about that scene when I saw it in the sneak peek, but after I saw it in context I was really irritated. It came across weird to me, like Elena was only saying that because she was planning to sacrifice herself and thought she'd never see Damon again. Then, when they are in the apartment, she upgraded it to "the people I love," and I always thought that was manipulative. From the first time I saw that episode, I thought she deliberately dropped the L-bomb to break down Damon's resolve and get him to do things her way. So, after reading your theory, I feel like it would really help explain what was so off-putting to me about Elena's "including the two of you." I mean, she pointed to Damon and let her eyes linger on him. She was (literally) making a point. She wanted the Salvatore brothers to drop their attempts at disarming the moonstone, and this was the argument that she used to persuade them. She could have stopped with "people I care about," but she didn't. She made a show of caring about Damon, and she looked like she was fully aware at the time of the effect she was having on him. Later, when she said that bit about the people that she loves, she even paused first, glanced down, and then WHISPERED it while looking in his eyes. When it became clear that her words didn't do the trick, her eyes hardened. So, to me, the scenes from "The Sacrifice" fit in perfectly with your theory.

Re: Elena won't forgive John. At the time that John tried to kill Damon, he was still very much someone that she cared about, so I think her mention of him there is justified regardless of her feelings for Damon right now.

I don't necessarily expect this to be a big finale reveal, but I would be happy if it was (as a show fan, but not as a shipper). I love that this show would even be capable of going there. I mean, I love that this is a valid theory that can't yet be disproven. How awesome is it that this could even be plausible?

Also, if Elena did pull a Katherine on Damon, I wonder how Stefan would feel about that?
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Brothersbutterfly on February 19th, 2011 12:56 pm (UTC)
Also, if Elena did pull a Katherine on Damon, I wonder how Stefan would feel about that?

Hmm, yes, now that we've seen that Stefan can get mad at Elena, I wonder if he'd get mad at her for using Damon. He's put a lot of effort into fixing his relationship with Damon (and even when he was still horribly upset at Damon, he still loved him), and having Damon be manipulated like this while Damon is trying, on his own, to be a better person, might strike Stefan as something he doesn't approve of. Especially since Damon is - as Stefan well knows - fully willing to die in Elena's defense.
lacrimadraconis: TVD Elena smilelacrimadraconis on February 19th, 2011 03:34 pm (UTC)
I just re-watched the scene where that screencap is from and I noticed that right before we see that smile on Elena's face, there is a cut. They cut together two different takes here because right before, Elena doesn't smile and then suddenly she does.

This also has been filmed from the side, so her smile might actually not be as cheeky and Katherine-like as it seems, it often comes across differently. Look at my icon, for example. It looks like Elena is smiling but actually she's totally upset, learning about Stefan still drinking human blood in 1x19.

It's still possible of course, but it might also be the way this was filmed.

The lack of personal space between them I think is due to the fact that Elena just held Damon back from rushing right over to John. She grabbed his arm, reaching around him to remind him about not being stupid.
crowandfog: TVD: Damon/Elena +crowandfog on February 20th, 2011 12:38 am (UTC)
Hmm. Yeah, it is possible that it the Katherine-like smirk was just an editing issue or camera angles or something. I mean, obviously, Elena's expression there was not considered super important since she spent a good part of that scene with The CW logo for a face, lol!
x5valex5vale on February 19th, 2011 06:16 am (UTC)
Very interesting theory and very good points.

I think what we will see between Damon and Elena is how their relationship change from being friends to be something more.

I agree with you that Elena doesn't show much worry about Damon when they are not around each other but I think this is part of the writers plan.
I am pretty sure the show will get there, not sure when this will happen...I don't think in this season, it wouldn't make much sense and it will be rushed.

I still think anyway that Damon is included in that list (and even whah she told Elijah about people she loves and has harmed him makes me think that this is the true), but I can see all your points. I just think it's something the writers have done this way intentionally to create suspense. Oh maybe...who knows, they didn't want to create it and just wrote it this way without thinking too much...we are, as fans, used to read into things more than the writers do sometimes, at least I often do :)

Edited at 2011-02-19 06:39 am (UTC)
eolivet on February 19th, 2011 02:27 pm (UTC)
Reposted for a strange typo ;p
Stubborn newbie here, and I still find this very hard to accept. ;p Mainly because of Occam's Razor (simplest explanation is the correct one) -- unless there have been specific instances of TVD openly defying Occam's Razor. I don't see Elena as that calculated or diabolical, especially with the show taking great pains to show how she's willing to martyr herself for those she loves.

I still think Damon is on the list, because Elena clearly included non-family members for whom she has no romantic feelings (i.e., Alaric, Bonnie, Caroline.) I might be able to buy it if Alaric wasn't on the list, but he's her history teacher and her sister's boyfriend. If sister's boyfriends are on the list, then boyfriend's brothers probably are, too. Elena has said to Damon herself (pre-neck snap) "I care about you!"

Plus, Elena has always been set up to be the anti-Katherine. This idea would be such a long game that (IMO) it'd be...drastically different than anything Elena has done before. She manipulated Damon for 1-2 episodes in S1, not an entire season/half season.

Another thing that may seem like weird evidence, but Jeremy's "death" hasn't been mentioned in a while (IIRC). I can't remember if it was in the previouslies recently, but I don't remember anybody bringing it up recently either. IMO, if shows are going to throw a curveball, it seems like they give a couple signs beforehand.

So, I feel like Damon is on the list, Elena isn't consciously manipulating him, but also isn't conscious of any non-friendly feelings (beyond "I care about you, boyfriend's brother") for him. Damon is going to go on his journey because of Elena, but independent of Elena, and if D/E happen, I still believe she won't know until a second before it happens how she feels.

As a D/E 'shipper...yay? :x
lacrimadraconis: TVD Elena bloodlineslacrimadraconis on February 19th, 2011 03:24 pm (UTC)
Wah, you also did a theory post, I swear I hadn't seen your title. It was all Buffy in my head :D

So, I did think about this a little more and though I cannot prove that you are wrong since you make some very valid points here, I hope that I can find a little few contradicting things as well.

As I mentioned in your other post, I don't think that Elena can easily lie to someone she is - in a good or bad way - emotionally attached to. Fooling Elijah or Rose or someone else she doesn't know, alright, but in 1x13 she was a bad liar. I'm sure Damon knew she wasn't honest but he wanted to believe her so badly. As he did in 1x14 when he decided to trust her again. I think she is generally an empathic character. Think of Tyler in 2x14! He just tried to kill Elena's boyfriend and still she saw where he was coming from and why and gave him a hug and forgave him on the spot. And tbh, though they have known each other for their whole lives, they haven't been really close.

Another thing is that Elena would not only be manipulating Damon, but she would basically manipulate every single person around her. She would have Bonnie, who absolutely loathes Damon, working together with him. She would have Caroline, who has been abused by Damon, also work together with him, she would leave Jeremy (of all people), first reluctantly but then willingly, in his presence and do stuff not only with Damon but even for Damon. I really can't see Elena do this. Twisting things in terms of Damon, alright, but lying and manipulating everyone she cares about, I just can't see it.
And then there's Stefan. Elena knows that no matter what, Stefan loves his brother and is happy that they finally managed to somewhat mend their broken bond, which got destroyed by Katherine's manipulative ways (and Stefan's own doing on top of that, but Katherine started it) and that is why he hates Katherine so much. If he'd find out - and he eventually would - that Elena behaved exactly as Katherine in terms of manipulating Damon to the point of no return, I can't think of any way for him to accept it.
lacrimadraconis: TVD Elena bloodlineslacrimadraconis on February 19th, 2011 03:25 pm (UTC)
Had to split :)

A few little other things that came to mind.

When Mason has set the Salvatores up to get caught and killed by Sheriff Liz, Elena was all "I'm not gonna let them get killed." Them. Hadn't Damon been on her mind as well, she could have just gasped out something like "OMG Stefan!". And in such a moment of emotional stress, I dont think she would've thought about anyone unimportant. The neck-snapping incident wasn't that long ago then and Elijah and the Originals have not been in the picture yet. So why think about Damon, if he wants him dead or doesn't care if he lives or dies?

I agree that there is not much of an reaction from her when she reads about the dagger killing both stabber and stabbee (yes, I made that up, but you know what I mean *g*). But this I think is A) because the scene is more about Stefan worrying about his brother than about Elena. We only see her for a short moment after Stefan put one and one together, then the camera is only on him. Also, later when they learn about the dagger having to stay in place Elena doesn't seem to be more involved either. She knows Alaric staked Elijah and that Jenna is also in the house, yet she doesn't strike me as overly worried. So she either assumes that Elijah would head straight into her direction or, if solely uses Damon and doesn't care about him, she feels the same way about Alaric and everyone who is possibly at the boarding house that moment.

Then there's the scene with Rose that didn't make it to the actual episode, but still. Elena tells Rose "I care about Damon, but I love Stefan." If she didn't give a damn about Damon why even pretend to care about him to someone who's about to die anyway? She could have left it at "I only love Stefan.", but she didn't.

Also did we see her have some sort of reaction to Damon blowing off Andie. There was no-one with her at that moment, only the viewer got to see her surprise and slight frown. If she didn't care about him at all, up to the point of being dead or alive, why would she react/behave that way?

The biggest thing though that makes me doubt this is that I can see absolutely no way Damon could ever recover from this. The moment he found out about it, I believe he'd really die inside. Even if Elena realizes at the last second that he matters to her, if he knew that she was exactly Katherine 2.0 all this time, didn't even care if he lived or died, I think that'd be it.
Elena is the only reason that Damon wanted to feel, wanted his humanity back, mirroring how he only wanted to be a vampire for Katherine. If his sole reason for his current existance gets taken away from - again - from someone who looks and now even behaves like Katherine, I don't think he'd "survive" that. He'd leave or go on a killing spree, having to be taken out by someone. And I can't see Ian leaving the show anytime soon ;)

So while I think that Elena is very consciously manipulating him sometimes because she knows she holds a certain power over him, I believe she really does it for him to be a better man.

Edited at 2011-02-19 03:37 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Elena04arabian on February 19th, 2011 03:40 pm (UTC)
You make some very valid points, and I'm leaning more 50/50 now, but I do have some rebuttals to your points to, LOL! Today's my sister's belated birthday celebration from me, so I must run. I'm off this week though, and I'll get back to this soon enough.
lacrimadraconis: TVD Puppy in a tutulacrimadraconis on February 19th, 2011 03:44 pm (UTC)
You know I love discussing stuff like this, so I'm already waiting :)

Have fun at the birthday celebration!
Arabian: Damon04arabian on February 19th, 2011 04:36 pm (UTC)
I did respond to that one section about Damon not recovering because butterfly mentioned that in response to you specifically as well, but GAH! I've got to go!!!

Thanks :)
Dianabutterfly on February 19th, 2011 04:26 pm (UTC)
The biggest thing though that makes me doubt this is that I can see absolutely no way Damon could ever recover from this. The moment he found out about it, I believe he'd really die inside. Even if Elena realizes at the last second that he matters to her, if he knew that she was exactly Katherine 2.0 all this time, didn't even care if he lived or died, I think that'd be it.

I think that might be my sticking point, too. I don't see how Damon could ever get past that as a character. I don't see how it wouldn't break him, to know that Elena was nothing more than Katherine all over again.
Arabian: Katherine02arabian on February 19th, 2011 04:35 pm (UTC)
I will respond to this real quick -- I actually love the idea that Damon comes to the realization that ...

(a) he DID so totally fuck up that he deserves to be hated and unforgiven for this long. I remember that I commented in BMR that Damon so didn't quite get it because he told her that she'd forgiven him for other stuff as if what he'd done to Jeremy could compare.

(b) Damon get that Elena is NOT the only person he has to be a better person for. In "The Descent," he said "they" as well as the "she." He also might realize that he doesn't want to lose Stefan (again), and Alaric.

(c) Damon will make the choice himself between liking killing because of his vampiric instinct and knowing it's wrong because the humanity switch doesn't work, and make that choice to NOT do what's wrong, not because of Elena (or even Stefan or Alaric) but rather because HE gets that it won't fix anything, it won't make him feel better in the long run. It simply won't work.

(d) to still love Elena despite her "betrayal," because he gets it. If anyone hurt Stefan the way he hurt Jeremy, he'd get how hard it would be. To still love Elena because his love isn't dependent on how she feels about him, he loves her no matter what and would forgive her anything no matter what ... even if she doesn't feel the same.

(e) finally, recognizing that what Katherine did and what Elena did may be surface similar in playing his feelings for them against him, BUT, again that Elena's motives are pure. She isn't stringing him along TO string him along because she wants to hurt him or because it's a fun game, but rather the lives of everyone that she loves is at stake and Damon could be a huge component in helping to keep those people alive. Keeping him close and on an even keel would help those on her list of loved ones.

Edited at 2011-02-19 04:37 pm (UTC)
Dianabutterfly on February 19th, 2011 04:51 pm (UTC)
I mean, it would depend on the writing, but it is really hard for me to see Damon hearing that Elena was just using him all this time and not have it be something that destroys him on some level. Though I guess that could be part of why they're beefing up the acceptance level in the Damon-Alaric friendship, so that, if destroyed, Damon would have somewhere to go to start to rebuild (because, if it involves Elena on that level, I'm not sure he could stand to be around Stefan, not right away). Possibly. I just think it would be... an incredibly destructive direction for the show to go for Damon. Which doesn't rule it out.

If they went this way, I actually could (as mentioned in my comment higher), see it as something that would eat away at the Stefan/Elena relationship, though. Because Stefan puts Elena on this 'so much better than Katherine; incapable of acting like Katherine in any way' pedestal and her hurting/using Damon the same way that Katherine did might bump her off it or at least lower it.

...though now you've got me thinking that if the show doesn't go in that direction, this could make for an interesting fic.

Edited at 2011-02-19 04:54 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Damon & Elena09arabian on February 19th, 2011 05:05 pm (UTC)
See, but it wouldn't be about Elena "using him all this time" as opposed to Elena choosing to take advantage of his feelings for her to help the greater good. She's not making him do things; he is choosing to help and be a part of it, she's just encouraging him to do the right thing. Other than saying that he's her friend in "The Descent," nothing else she's said would be terrible in retrospect. She hasn't said she's forgiven him, she never specifically said that he was on her list. She does care about him; she wouldn't be lying about that, but just because she cares, doesn't mean that she will have forgiven him enough for what he did.

And, I could see this being the thing that DOES break Stefan and Elena. I don't think that Elena quite gets HOW much Stefan loves/needs Damon. I've always felt (and nothing on the show has shown me otherwise) that Damon is Stefan's first priority, and I don't think that Elena gets that. I honestly believe that if he had to choose, he'd choose Damon over Elena. I really do. And I could see Stefan being furious with her for hurting Damon, for not realizing that by putting her hurt over what happened to Jeremy (that he "could have" died, but didn't over Damon unknowingly throwing himself into so many dangerous situations because he thought he was protected, but wasn't) to a continuous risk to Damon's (un)life could be a tipping point for Stefan.

Obviously, she knows they are brothers, but I get the sense that she doesn't think of them as a pair, but rather two separates who orbit each other. She's so distinctly separated them (I think) in her mind, that she doesn't quite get the degree to the love that they have for one another. I don't think anyway. And, of course, your point that Stefan has Elena on SUCH a pedestal, he couldn't imagine she'd do something so "Katherine"-like, while I don't think it would terribly surprise Damon.

Anyhoo, I could be totally wrong, but I can see how it would all play out and really work in not only strengthening Damon/Elena in the long run (again, evening that playing field a little), but severely weaken Stefan and Elena because it would shift and alter their perceptions of each other.

ETA: if the show doesn't go in that direction, this could make for an interesting fic.

Hah, I totally have a fic-in-mind that would go with this as well as lacrimadraconis's theory too. :)!

Edited at 2011-02-19 05:06 pm (UTC)
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Brothersbutterfly on February 19th, 2011 05:13 pm (UTC)
See, but it wouldn't be about Elena "using him all this time" as opposed to Elena choosing to take advantage of his feelings for her to help the greater good. She's not making him do things; he is choosing to help and be a part of it, she's just encouraging him to do the right thing. Other than saying that he's her friend in "The Descent," nothing else she's said would be terrible in retrospect. She hasn't said she's forgiven him, she never specifically said that he was on her list. She does care about him; she wouldn't be lying about that, but just because she cares, doesn't mean that she will have forgiven him enough for what he did.

Manipulating might be a better word than 'using'. It would definitely be manipulation, because Elena knows how Damon is interpreting her words and actions (he's not subtle).

And, I could see this being the thing that DOES break Stefan and Elena. I don't think that Elena quite gets HOW much Stefan loves/needs Damon. I've always felt (and nothing on the show has shown me otherwise) that Damon is Stefan's first priority, and I don't think that Elena gets that. I honestly believe that if he had to choose, he'd choose Damon over Elena. I really do. And I could see Stefan being furious with her for hurting Damon, for not realizing that by putting her hurt over what happened to Jeremy (that he "could have" died, but didn't over Damon unknowingly throwing himself into so many dangerous situations because he thought he was protected, but wasn't) to a continuous risk to Damon's (un)life could be a tipping point for Stefan.

Yeah. Stefan was so worried over Damon in the last episode that Alaric had to tell him to slow down so that he could actually understand what Stefan was trying to tell him. And even in 2x01, Stefan's first impulse was to attempt to justify Damon's actions before he moved to comfort Elena.
crowandfog: TVD: Damon/Elena a work in progresscrowandfog on February 20th, 2011 01:36 am (UTC)
I agree that Elena acting like Katherine would be just the thing to break up her relationship with Stefan. I have always thought that Damon was the most important person in Stefan's life. (I don't, however, think that Stefan is exactly the same priority for Damon, but that's a whole different discussion.)

And even in 2x01, Stefan's first impulse was to attempt to justify Damon's actions before he moved to comfort Elena.

Also, Stefan never really jumped on Elena's Damon-is-evil wagon did he? Elena said, "I hate him," and Stefan just said, "I know." And in the next episode, Stefan is clearly watching over Damon and trying to gauge his emotional/mental state. He never spoke to Damon about what happened with Jeremy, did he? He just kind of poked Damon a little bit to see if he wanted to talk about Katherine, realized he didn't, and moved on. It reminds me of after 1x14, when Stefan was constantly in "leave Damon alone/if you have a problem with him talk to me first" mode. He was very protective.
lacrimadraconis: TVD Damon Elena Alariclacrimadraconis on February 19th, 2011 05:13 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you mean and agree that at this point it isn't solely about Elena anymore and that Damon has to and will make the choice for himself. I also agree on the fact that he would keep on loving Elena even if he learned she was using him all the time.
Actually, I agree with all the things you said here :D and I have to take back the "going on a killing spree" in my other comment. It would be too much of a backwards step for him and probably wouldn't make any sense anymore at that moment in the story.

But, and I think I'll stick to that, I cannot see Damon stay in Mystic Falls after that. I could never imagine him sticking around and watching Stefan and Elena and everyone else be happy and relieved while knowing she despises him above everyone else.
He knows that nobody in Mystic Falls needs him as much as he needs them. It's tragic, but I think it's true on a certain level. Yes, Stefan loves his brother and "needs" his brother in the way that he wants him close and around, but he can deal without him, and so can Alaric and Liz and the others. So yeah, I think he'd leave. Which Ian hopefully won't do ;)

Edited at 2011-02-19 05:17 pm (UTC)
Arabian: DE & Alaric01arabian on February 19th, 2011 05:56 pm (UTC)
And that's where YOUR theory comes in. Damon decides to take the bullet (so to speak) and stabs Klaus, sacrificing himself to save everyone including the woman he loves. And instead winds up human.

Ah hah!!!!
lacrimadraconislacrimadraconis on February 20th, 2011 10:17 am (UTC)
You know, this actually makes so much sense, it's almost crazy. Not that I hope either of us is right, but it would be so interesting.

This show, I swear LOL.
crowandfogcrowandfog on February 20th, 2011 01:23 am (UTC)
Yeah, I see what you mean and agree that at this point it isn't solely about Elena anymore and that Damon has to and will make the choice for himself. I also agree on the fact that he would keep on loving Elena even if he learned she was using him all the time.
Actually, I agree with all the things you said here :D and I have to take back the "going on a killing spree" in my other comment. It would be too much of a backwards step for him and probably wouldn't make any sense anymore at that moment in the story.


That was my first assumed reaction for Damon, too--that he would go on a killing spree. (Heck, that's probably the first thing that would cross his mind, too, lol.) But I think that it would be a lot stronger for the story if it was this--Elena betraying him-- that was humanity test number three, and this time Damon passed. It would make his final acceptance of his humanity so much more powerful. And right now, what else do they have in play that could break him and bring him to that point again where he has to choose?

But I also agree with you that it might make him leave Mystic Falls. And, wow, wouldn't that be interesting if Damon disappeared for a couple episodes? I mean, I'd hate it because PRETTY IAN and FAVORITE DAMON, but it would prove just how much of a risk the show is willing to take (and how just how insane TPTB for this show really are). And after what they did to Tyler... But the ratings would probably drop like hot potatoes for a bit.

Tbh, one of the things that scares me most about Damon and Elena actually getting together is that I can't see how Damon would "survive" a break up, y'know? It's what makes it easier for me to handle the drawn out buildup, because I need them to get together and stay together.

Also, why aren't we friends? I'd like to be friends. I'm adding you. Add me back?
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Nina/Ianbutterfly on February 20th, 2011 01:55 am (UTC)
But I also agree with you that it might make him leave Mystic Falls. And, wow, wouldn't that be interesting if Damon disappeared for a couple episodes? I mean, I'd hate it because PRETTY IAN and FAVORITE DAMON, but it would prove just how much of a risk the show is willing to take (and how just how insane TPTB for this show really are). And after what they did to Tyler... But the ratings would probably drop like hot potatoes for a bit.

Hmm. You know what - I think it's more likely that the show would split up and show us Damon going off somewhere rather than him just disappearing. Especially if, perhaps, Alaric went with him. The show tends to prioritize Damon's PoV over... almost everyone else's.
crowandfog: TVD: Damon she'll rip your heart outcrowandfog on February 20th, 2011 02:04 am (UTC)
Hmm. You know what - I think it's more likely that the show would split up and show us Damon going off somewhere rather than him just disappearing. Especially if, perhaps, Alaric went with him. The show tends to prioritize Damon's PoV over... almost everyone else's.

Ha! Solid point, and I would greatly prefer that scenario for the capitalized reasons I already gave. :D I think it would have more impact if he disappeared, but it might not be a good impact (ratings-wise, since I think it would be emotional gold). So it would be a lot smarter to let the audience see Damon while he was elsewhere. I also think that Damon "falling off the face of the earth" would be a great eye-opener for Elena. She might realize how much she cares about him and wants him in her life.

*And at this point, if none of this stuff happens, I think we are almost duty-bound to write fic, lol.
Diana: Vampire Diaries - Dancebutterfly on February 20th, 2011 04:37 am (UTC)
*And at this point, if none of this stuff happens, I think we are almost duty-bound to write fic, lol.

I know, right? It's all such a potentially interesting story!
lacrimadraconis: TVD Damon seriouslacrimadraconis on February 20th, 2011 10:15 am (UTC)
This would really make for interesting story-telling, especially about him leaving as an eye-opener for Elena.

Wah, I'm anxious for the finale already *g*
lacrimadraconis: TVD Damon Elena dancelacrimadraconis on February 20th, 2011 10:09 am (UTC)
Tbh, one of the things that scares me most about Damon and Elena actually getting together is that I can't see how Damon would "survive" a break up, y'know? It's what makes it easier for me to handle the drawn out buildup, because I need them to get together and stay together.

THIS is exactly what I think as well. Of course we have to see how their relationship works out once they really are together, and how this will make their characters evolve. There will probably be some time where Elena loves both brothers equally and I guess this will happen over the course of season 3 and then I hope for Damon/Elena until the end.

I trust the writers enough to believe that they could even make a break up work, it depends on the directions they take for the show in general. Despite his 168 years, Damon never had a real relationship, so they'd both have to figure out how this might work and maybe it just wouldn't. I think and hope it will, but if the writers make it plausible I'd maybe even be okay with them not being endgame though it would break my heart.

BUT the one thing I'm sure of is that Damon wouldn't "survive" if Elena goes back to Stefan after she was with him. To be the second choice and then not being able to keep Elena, that would break him for all eternity. I'd rather have Elena end up alone or dead or both brothers dying or probably even only Damon dying but Elena still loving/choosing him until the end, than having Damon endure to be only secondbest again.
Stefan I can see cope with a break up after some time, though he'll be hurt and furious and the brother element comes into play as well, but I can still see him understand that Damon and Elena need each other. That they are epic, and not him and Elena.

This is why I'm totally okay with the back and forth in Damon and Elena's relationship, that they draw it out for so long that in the end it will be real. That they will be endgame.

Also, why aren't we friends? I'd like to be friends. I'm adding you. Add me back?
Sure, great! Added you right back :)
Myramidnightblack07 on February 20th, 2011 03:39 am (UTC)
Indeed, this is a very interesting theory and a part of me would love to see it play out--can you IMAGINE the kind of angst that would ensue?? Elena's guilt, Damon coming to terms with her betrayal ugggh someone needs to fic this NOW!!

BUT I don't think it is *-) I don't have any concrete reasons for believing it tbh, but it's just that despite Elena's manipulations here and there, I don't think she would actively endanger Damon's life for her own agenda (at least, to this point, we haven't seen her do anything on that large a scale). I mean, I know she wouldn't be signing his death certificate herself, but she must know that he's fighting a dangerous battle for her and the people she loves because he cares about her, and she's giving him the impression that she cares as well (she made it very clear, like you said in 2x10).

IDK, I don't see Elena, despite how upset she may still be with Damon (and the little manipulations she's willing to execute here and there), playing with his life like this, it's far too Katherine-esque--of course that's not to say that Elena doesn't channel Katherine (more often this season than she did last), but the writers seem as if they're intent by drawing some very fundamental parallels between the two characters (particualrly the notion that Elena=selfless and Katherine=selfish), and having Elena manipulate Damon in this way is something that would completely negate that (Elena would literally be Katherine all over again).

As for Elena's behavior in 2x12, softly_me pointed out why it all makes sense in light of Elena's deal with Elijah. She made that deal during 2x11 and she obviously knew that she was more or less trading her life for the safety of those she loves & hence, she is taking Elijah's words to heart and living what's left of her life as best she could, and a lot of her behavior in the following episodes suggests that she's on a time crunch:

* Her "I don't want to be apart, EVER" to Stefan, which at first seemed a but too needy and OOC for Elena, makes sense now because she believes her ever won't be all that long...

* Her openly forgiving Damon now makes sense because, despite her possibly still being upset with him, she still cares about him and she doesn't want to waste her last moments with him on bad terms/denying the friendship they've built...

* Her wanting to get away and enjoy herself with Stefan at the Lakehouse illustrates her wanting to make the best of the time she has left...

* Her pushing Damon to "be the better man" over and over again in 2x13 makes sense now because it's like she wants to make sure he won't make the wrong decisions when she's gone...

^ It's a theory, but it makes sense in light of what we learned in 2x14...

That said, I do kinda with the writers had the gall to take Elena down that route because it would make for some pretty awesome storytelling, character layering and angst... but sadly I don't think they will =(
Dianabutterfly on February 20th, 2011 04:34 am (UTC)
, [info]softly_me pointed out why it all makes sense in light of Elena's deal with Elijah. She made that deal during 2x11 and she obviously knew that she was more or less trading her life for the safety of those she loves & hence, she is taking Elijah's words to heart and living what's left of her life as best she could, and a lot of her behavior in the following episodes suggests that she's on a time crunch:


Oooo, that rings very true for me. That does make sense.
lacrimadraconis: TVD Elena smilelacrimadraconis on February 20th, 2011 10:20 am (UTC)
Oh, this an interesting take on things as well.

Elena would try to make peace with everything and everyone while still protecting them and sort of preparing them for a future without her. It'd be very Elena-like behavior.
Me: tvd Elena (smile)softly_me on March 14th, 2011 01:21 pm (UTC)
*blushes*

I saw my name and got all smiley at being referenced. Thanks, bb!

Edited at 2011-03-14 01:22 pm (UTC)
Myramidnightblack07 on March 15th, 2011 08:44 am (UTC)
aww hehe np, your interpertation made loads of sense to me so I kinda felt obligated to spread it =P
jolie chèvre diable: tvd - bonnie & stefan - talkfamiliardevil on March 13th, 2011 08:00 pm (UTC)
Lovin this theory rn :D Very insightful! Thank you for sharing!
damon_s_86damon_s_86 on March 14th, 2011 12:19 pm (UTC)
Let's hope for Damon's sake you're wrong. If he's not on that list and Elena was all but manipulating him throughout I'd be very very very mad I'd sign up to Team Stake Elena very quickly. It would be very cold of her to not include after everything he'd done to earn her trust back.
Me: tvd Elena + Damon (not you)softly_me on March 14th, 2011 01:18 pm (UTC)
Hmm, this gave me lots to think about. For most of the season, I've complained about how quickly Elena got over Damon killing her brother. Just three episodes later he was at her house for a family barbecue and I couldn't believe Elena would allow it. If that were me I would tell Damon that he is absolutely forbidden from being around my family EVER AGAIN. But, whatever, I learned to live with it. But then, after we found our about the sacrifice, it got even worse between her reasserting their friendship at the end of 'The Descent' and then all the touching in 'Daddy Issues'. In the end, I explained it away because Elena is basically living like someone who only has a few months to live. She'd love to stay angry with Damon, but there isn't time. It's more important to leave him with her final message to him "be the better man".

Anyway, the POINT of all this is that this is such an intriguing idea about Elena and one that I would NEVER have thought of. It definitely throws her into a darker light, which I actually like quite a bit. I prefer to think of Elena as much more morally flexible than people are ready to admit. It'd be really cool to see the show take her more toward a Katherine-angle. She is pretty good at manipulating people, maybe she just uses her powers for good instead of evil?

It's possible that Elijah's words are just dealing with two different kinds of people. Damon is a threat so he needs to be intimidated. Elijah tries to make it clear that he could squash him like a bug if he were so inclined. With Alaric, he was more trying to reassure him that he wasn't a threat to him or Jenna. Hence, bringing up the list. I doubt Elijah ever thought of Rick as a threat at all (big mistake).

Furthermore, even if Elena hasn't forgiven Damon (which she absolutely shouldn't have yet), I think that she would still have done everything possible to keep him safe because of Stefan. And, yes, I'm a super obvious S/E shipper, but that's one of the most important elements of their relationship. Elena & Stefan value the people that are important to the other. Why did Elena save Damon from Lexi's boyfriend in 'Bloodlines'? Damon hasn't done anything to her at that point other than abuse and try to kill her best friends. Lexi's boyfriend has every right to seek vengeance on the man who murdered Lexi. I honestly think Elena saved Damon because she couldn't stand the idea of going back home and telling Stefan what happened.

Even after Damon kills Jeremy, Elena never asks Stefan to cut Damon out of his life, never asks him to make Damon leave town. Because she understands how important that relationship is to both brothers. When facing the certainty of her own death, I don't think she'd make a deal with would force Stefan to watch his brother die again.
brightstarmarabrightstarmara on April 30th, 2011 08:47 pm (UTC)
Loved reading this! Mainly because I've NEVER heard anybody looking at Elena this way. Although I have been know to say that ELena manipulates like Kat, I've never thought about the possibility of it being intentional.

I tend to love unpopular theories, because they give people the chance to kinda stretch the mind a bit. Dude, I just stretched mine! I think I pulled something...

One thing that has bothered me a little with Damon and Elena is the fact that aparently we are all supposed to believe that she has gotton passed him killing her brother. As much as I lvoe the character of Damon, that... There was no point. I yelped when he killed Lexi, but that had a point.

Elena puzzles me. Sometimes I love her and the fact that she does what she thinks is best. Other times I want to smakc her on the head. At the grill when he called her on her behavior, I cheered for him. That whole scene was odd. He turned Andie down and then Elena calls him rude? He just killed Rose and burried her. Elena knew that...

This show, you never know what's next, which is good. But it doesn't always make sense.

Anyway, thank you for writing and posting this!