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25 January 2009 @ 08:43 pm
If you had the choice, which way would you go?  
Just pondering a few ifs/ors and thought I'd pose them to my flist. Feel free to expound upon your answers; I sure did.

Which would you prefer?

Christopher Eccleston staying on as the Doctor for series two (with Tennant taking over after that)
31(32.0%)
Billie Piper staying on as Rose through series three (Doomsday happening at the close of three)
59(60.8%)

Which would you prefer?

David Tennant re-signing with Steven Moffat in charge
20(20.8%)
David Tennant leaving with RTD with Paul Cornell put in charge
76(79.2%)

Which would you prefer?

A different actress playing Martha with the series three arc remaining
34(40.5%)
Donna finding the Doctor in series three, as opposed to series four (no Martha introduced)
50(59.5%)

Which episode(s) would you get rid of if you could choose one?

'Girl in the Fireplace'
28(28.9%)
'Silence in the Library/Forest of the Dead'
65(67.0%)


The reasons for my answers ... The one about Eccleston or Billie staying was the only one that I actually was torn on, the rest were easy to decide. But this one? I REALLY, REALLY would have loved another season of Eccleston and Piper, of Nine and Rose, but, but, but ... it would have been AWESOME to have one more series of Billie Piper as Rose. I dunno, if I HAD to choose one option -- with the chips falling where they may with future story ... I'd go with Eccleston because I'd still be able to enjoy Billie in other roles (and I actually enjoy her more as Belle/Hannah on Secret Diary of a Call Girl), whereas my favorite Eccleston role is Nine.

Like I said, the other three are easy to answer. In a heartbeat, I'd lose Tennant if it meant I got Cornell instead of Moffat because I believe that Moffat would have pretty much destroyed Ten while in charge. Plus, I have no intention of watching Who under Moffat. I got over losing Eccleston/Nine, so I'd get over losing Tennant/Ten if it meant that I still had my beloved show, and under Cornell, I believe that it would remain my beloved show.

I actually loved the idea behind the Martha-unrequited arc of series three and I think it played an important step in the Doctor's growth; my problem with it is that while Freema Agyeman is lovely, I don't think she's a very good actress. Therefore, I don't think she was able to handle the demands of the role as envisioned by Russell T Davies. If it seems unfair to blame the less-that-stellar arc on the actress, I can't help it when practically every other female introduced by Davis with any kind of arc was beautifully written, conceived and played out, in my opinion. And I can SEE the arc so clearly and its brilliance; so, yes, I do blame the issues with it upon the actress. And as long as I still get my Donna in The Runaway Bride and series four, I'm fine with waiting another series for her.

Finally, again ... easy. Which Moffat episode would I junk? It was never stated (or really even implied -- that was more because of the early speculation) that River was anything but someone that the Doctor knew and cared about in the future in the script. And, furthermore, as lame as the two-parter was, in regards to the overall story, you could still take from it the love that the Doctor felt for both Rose and Donna (and, yeah, okay the universe) is why he did all that he did in that two-parter and in any future relationship with River.

On the other hand, GitF, while much better written -- albeit with some plot holes as well -- it just spat all over the character continuity of the Doctor and Rose and frankly made the Doctor look like a bit of an asshole. As craptastic as SitL/FotD are, you *can* watch them in order without them appearing out of place (if not aspects of them portraying the Doctor and Donna out of character), but you can't really watch GitF and try and fit in with the episodes before and after it without it seeming jarringly out of place. So, goodbye Girl in the Fireplace.
 
 
 
gowdie: Beardy Goodnessgowdie on January 26th, 2009 02:07 am (UTC)
Yeah, I cheated. Because while I constantly say I wish we had more of Eccleston as the Doctor, I do not want to give up Piper with Tennant. So, IF in this wonderful fantasy world, Eccleston stays for series two, then Piper HAS to stay for series three. That's it - cake, frosting, everything. I want it all.

I've never really thought I had a problem with Agyeman, but I am luke warm on Martha. I have always blamed this on the Doctor being luke warm on Martha, and my picking up that vibe. BUT, it's entirely possible I would feel very different in the hands of a different actress. Hmmmm.

Meanwhile, I agree with absolutely EVERYTHING you said about the other two questions, including the part about GitF actually being better written, but still being the bigger continuity problem. So, yes, a great big DITTO!
Arabian: David Tennant_01arabian on January 26th, 2009 02:58 am (UTC)
IF in this wonderful fantasy world, Eccleston stays for series two, then Piper HAS to stay for series three. That's it - cake, frosting, everything. I want it all.
Honestly, that would be my dream scenario too. Two series with Nine/Rose, one with Ten/Rose and then the rest of the series follows as is.
I've never really thought I had a problem with Agyeman, but I am luke warm on Martha. I have always blamed this on the Doctor being luke warm on Martha, and my picking up that vibe. BUT, it's entirely possible I would feel very different in the hands of a different actress. Hmmmm.
There's a post I've been meaning to write forever about this very thing. I will get around to it, I WILL! It really details why I believe this is the case.


Edited at 2009-01-26 02:58 am (UTC)
madeelly: martha jonesmadeelly on January 26th, 2009 02:16 am (UTC)
The Martha one is hard. =/ I really liked Martha, and I didn't mind Freema Agyeman. Yes, they could have picked a better actress, but I really don't think Freema was as bad as all that.

But that's just me. Series three was always my favorite.
Arabian: I ♥ RTDarabian on January 26th, 2009 03:03 am (UTC)
I did like Martha and I do like Freema, I just think that it could have been so much more and I do truly believe that the frustration so many felt with series three can be laid at Freema's feet. But if you liked S3 best, than obviously, that's not a problem you share, LOL!
Diana: With Dalek -- David and Billiebutterfly on January 26th, 2009 02:39 am (UTC)
My reasons are as follows:

1. I picked Billie staying on an extra year, which is probably due, in part, to feeling like the first series worked so perfectly exactly as it is. I wouldn't want to change any of it, not even Nine dying (because it fits so well, thematically!). But I think they could have pushed back the S3 arc another year and had the tenth Doctor and Rose with another series together before the big heartbreak. It would have given them even more time to recover from the clusterfuck of GitF.

2. I chose David staying gone over keeping Moffat because, well, only in one of those cases would I have kept watching the show. I love David as an actor, but I dislike Moffat as a writer that much more.

3. Though I do feel that Freema has gotten better over the course of her time with Who, a stronger actor wouldn't have needed that time. S3 was a series where, because of the acting, it felt like the show only had one lead and I think that that hurt the emotions of the final arc.

4. I chose SitL/FotD in part because they occur so much closer to the end of their series than GitF does. After GitF, the show had time to recover from the stumbling block of WTF? that the episode had placed into continuity. SitL/FotD is just so disrespectful and badly-written and sexist and... yeah. It doesn't even have 'it looks pretty' going for it.

And junking SitL/FotD gives another two episodes to the show. Have Moffat write one episode, set pre-Midnight (or just... swap SitL/Fotd into S3, where it would be less jarring, and put "Blink" into S4 -- there would not be that much work required to make that happen, as the companions never matter to Moffat's plots), and have another episode 'in between' TSE and JE.
Arabian: David & Billie Dancingarabian on January 26th, 2009 03:04 am (UTC)
1. I can see your point there that the Nine arc really was perfectly played out, and it would have been lovely getting more of Rose and the Doctor (any number).

2. You know we agree there.

3. Ditto.

4. Again, I see your point; I just have such blind, seething hatred for GitF, LOL!
Larissa: kitty o_Olarissa_j on January 26th, 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
It doesn't even have 'it looks pretty' going for it.

Looks like a mess would be more accurate for SiL/FotD.

*pats Who lighting crew*
aroniwen on January 26th, 2009 02:40 am (UTC)
Hmm, I went with Eccleston for series to (because I love him) and also because.... and I hate to say this as a D/R shipper, but I don't know where they could have gone with her character arc for another season. They were all over each other as it was, and it was pretty clear that they were in love, so I'm not sure canonically how they could have really developed their relationship more for an entire season.

RTD and Paul Cornell? No choice at all, it's like you said, I can deal with a new Doctor as long as it's still *my* show, and I just can't see Moffat doing that. (plus I'm kind of glad that Moffat didn't get his hands on either of Rose's doctors or on Donna's doctor).

I've got to agree with you completely on the Martha thing however, yes I think the writing probably could have used some work in parts, but it can ALWAYS use some work in parts (Donna and Rose didn't always have the most fantastic lines) that's the reality of writing on a deadline-- but there were just these moments, where you could see the arc shining through and I just couldn't buy Martha. I mean I really wanted to like her but I just couldn't connect.

Finally where I have to disagree with you is in the fourth one-- I would get rid of SitL/FotD. For a couple reasons. One, I don't think the writing is as tight, two, although we do get aknowledgement of the Doctor's other relationships I find the entire plot WAY more offensive that GitF (and being a History Major I spent a lot of time ranting at the screen about how he slaughtered her character) but mostly I have to get rid of it because he had a library.... full of an alien species that eats you if you step into the shadows..... and he put them into skeleton!spacesuits??? LAME, and not at all scary. At least the clockwork robots looked cool.

Hmmm, that was long, but I just wanted to say that I've been reading some of your meta and really enjoyed it.... would you mind if I friended you?
Larissa: kitty ZOMGlarissa_j on January 26th, 2009 02:47 am (UTC)
and being a History Major I spent a lot of time ranting at the screen about how he slaughtered her character <--THIS

THANK YOU! I think I love you. I've been saying this for years and people shrug it off and claim the only reason I could hate GitF is because I'm a crawzy shipper.
Principia: DW - 4.02 TFoP Doc Donna Eurghprincipia on January 26th, 2009 02:51 am (UTC)
The fact that SM turned MdP into a brocade-wearing Kewpie doll couldn't possibly have anything to do with anyone disliking the episode. *eyeroll*
Larissa: LLL-Bullshitlarissa_j on January 26th, 2009 03:26 am (UTC)
It would have been less offensive if he had done it with an unknown character he created because then he wouldn't have ruined her. Oh wait, I take that back because in S4 we have River Song! Okay, he wouldn't have ruined the characterization of a real person! Because surely, GitF wasn't supposed to be satire?
Arabian: Christopher Eccleston_02arabian on January 26th, 2009 03:10 am (UTC)
First of all, friend away!!! :D
Hmm, I went with Eccleston for series to (because I love him) and also because.... and I hate to say this as a D/R shipper, but I don't know where they could have gone with her character arc for another season.
Hmm, nice having another Eccleston-fan here (psst, you might want to check my recent entries, in case you haven't seen The Invisible Circus). And you do have a really good point there. It would have been pretty unbelievable to have them still at the hand-holding phase the way they were towards the latter part of series two. (Of course, personally, I thought things had progressed ... Yup, they were doing it.) Good point.
I can deal with a new Doctor as long as it's still *my* show, and I just can't see Moffat doing that.
Right. Exactly right.
(plus I'm kind of glad that Moffat didn't get his hands on either of Rose's doctors or on Donna's doctor)
Lordy, yes!!!
I've got to agree with you completely on the Martha thing ... there were just these moments, where you could see the arc shining through and I just couldn't buy Martha. I mean I really wanted to like her but I just couldn't connect.
Seriously, I do have this long Martha post waiting to be written. I will write it someday, I will!

I see (and agree) with all of your points regarding the steaming pile o' stink that was SitL/FotD, but as I said above to butterfly, I positively ABHOR GitF so very, very, very much.
Larissa: FNP with gunlarissa_j on January 26th, 2009 02:43 am (UTC)
I'm a Tennant girl so I'd rather have Billie/David ;)

And I would never want to see Ten written by Moffat for an entire Season. Having a few episodes with asshole!Doctor was enough thank you. A Cornell S5 might be fun.

I found Martha's unrequited love storyline painful and too drawn out. It's not that I want the character gone from Who but I much preferred the Doctor/Donna episodes.

I'd take GitF over SiL/FotD because while both storylines suck and are terribly sexist, I cannot stand how SiL/FotD ends nor can I put up with River Song and her pay attention to me now please attitude.
Arabian: David Tennant_01arabian on January 26th, 2009 11:47 am (UTC)
I would never want to see Ten written by Moffat for an entire Season. Having a few episodes with asshole!Doctor was enough thank you. A Cornell S5 might be fun.
This really is the biggie. I just can't imagine anyone else they could have picked that would actually make me NOT continue watching, but Moffat is it.
I found Martha's unrequited love storyline painful and too drawn out.
I just think there was intended to be a poignancy to the arc that Freema was unable to bring forth.

I can't stand Sitl/FotD but for me, while that one was horribly stupid and sexist, the Doctor was mostly the Doctor (except for some of his interactions with Donna), whereas in GitF, he was just such a jerk.
Principiaprincipia on January 26th, 2009 02:49 am (UTC)
Going backwards here...
SitL/FotD were just so terrible overall that I can't conscience keeping them in. The very basic concept, that heaven forbid the Doctor have someone in his life after Rose, did not offend me. I'm not going to start foaming at the mouth about those episodes again, I'm not. Let me explain. No, 's too much. Let me sum up.

If the framework of those episodes had been handled by a competent writer, we would have had someone to look forward to in River Song. I love Alex Kingston, and I was really looking forward to seeing her in this, and she was just wasted.

----------------------

I felt like I had a better sense of Tish as a person in five minutes of screen time with Gugu Mbatha-Raw than I do of Martha after an entire series plus-eight of Freema Agyeman playing the character. That's not the writing, that's the actress. If the roles had been reversed and FA were playing Tish, with GMR playing Martha, I think the overall opinion of her character would have been and would continue to be much higher.

----------------------

I would vastly prefer having Paul Cornell, Matthew Graham, Mark Gatiss, Matt Strong, or any number of other people as the new showrunner. I'd prefer PC, but given that MG has actually been a head writer for a show, that would put him slightly ahead in the hireability line as far as the Beeb is likely concerned.

----------------------

It's really sort of hard to judge on the first one, because had Eccleston stayed I think the stories in Series 2 would have been very, very different from the ones we got with Tennant in the role. And I don't think CE ever would have stayed for a second year, so that kind of kills that option for me.

I think a fair amount of the unending fanwank would've been put to rest had we had another series with Rose under our belts; if nothing else, I think they could've made the time and budget for Stephen Fry's ambitious and reportedly very shippy script as a two-parter.
bubbles234bubbles234 on January 26th, 2009 03:08 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
"I think they could've made the time and budget for Stephen Fry's ambitious and reportedly very shippy script as a two-parter."

I feel as if I am missing something extremely important, and this makes me sad D: Because that? NOTHING WOULD BE BETTER THAN THAT.
Principiaprincipia on January 27th, 2009 04:55 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
See my response below.
Arabian: Dr Who (9) - FDarabian on January 26th, 2009 11:52 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
If the framework of those episodes had been handled by a competent writer, we would have had someone to look forward to in River Song. I love Alex Kingston, and I was really looking forward to seeing her in this, and she was just wasted.
I too like Alex Kingston and was looking forward to the episodes because of her and she was completely wasted. I dunno, I guess I just felt more disgusted by the Doctor's behavior and treatment of Rose that I have such a visceral reaction of hatred towards GitF that I can't justify it. And it just was so starkly out of flow and consistency with EVERYTHING else in S2 that it really, really sticks out badly.
I felt like I had a better sense of Tish as a person in five minutes of screen time with Gugu Mbatha-Raw than I do of Martha after an entire series plus-eight of Freema Agyeman playing the character. That's not the writing, that's the actress. If the roles had been reversed and FA were playing Tish, with GMR playing Martha, I think the overall opinion of her character would have been and would continue to be much higher.
It's so weird that you were thinking of Tish, because my mind went to her and I was thinking when formulating the question: What if SHE had been playing Martha? For me, really it was all about the actress.
It's really sort of hard to judge on the first one, because had Eccleston stayed I think the stories in Series 2 would have been very, very different from the ones we got with Tennant in the role. And I don't think CE ever would have stayed for a second year, so that kind of kills that option for me.I think they could've made the time and budget for Stephen Fry's ambitious and reportedly very shippy script as a two-parter.
What is this?! I've never heard about it. What information do you have on it? Please tell!!!
Principiaprincipia on January 27th, 2009 04:56 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
See my response below.
Gwynevere1gwynevere1 on January 27th, 2009 12:06 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
I think they could've made the time and budget for Stephen Fry's ambitious and reportedly very shippy script as a two-parter.

What exactly was that supposed to be about? I remembered reading that Fry had written an unfilmed script but never even a whisper of the basic plot?
Principiaprincipia on January 27th, 2009 05:11 am (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
The rather thin details that have been dribbled out regarding Stephen Fry's script are as follows:

1. Stephen Fry started work on the story for the script during Series 1.

2. He completed (or was very close to completing) the script during Series 2.

3. The script was set at a manor house during the 1920s, and involved both a) significant romantic elements for the Doctor and Rose and b) an alien invasion force.

3. At a late date, it was determined upon all parties reviewing the script that it a) was far too expensive for the late slot it was meant to occupy in Series 2, b) it might actually need to be a two-parter, and c) was to be bumped to Series 3.

4. Matthew Graham (one of the creators of Life on Mars) had already been talking about doing a script for Series 3. When Mr. Fry's script got the Spanish archer, MG was tapped to quickly bring his story concept to the page. The resulting episode, written in something like one to two weeks, was Fear Her.

The reasons for the failure for the script to appear in either Series 3 or 4 have been the matter of some speculation. While one of the official reasons given was simple lack of time to do rewrites on SF's part, it has since been heavily implied/speculated that the reason Stephen Fry's script could not be reworked into a post-Rose story is that a) the script was so heavily Doctor/Rose that to remove that element would gut the script entirely, and b) that the relationship was the element which held the greatest interest for Fry and if it were going to be omitted, he was not interested in moving forward with further work on it.
bubbles234bubbles234 on January 27th, 2009 01:50 pm (UTC)
Re: Going backwards here...
Oh, but an episode by Stephen Fry would have been *fantastic*. If you don't have the budget for something by Fry, then you make the budget.

And I really, really want to see this script now, too xD
Marinajavabreeze on January 26th, 2009 02:55 am (UTC)
I would have really loved another series with Billie. She and David are pure gold and I wouldn't want to give that up. I really like how series 1 ended with 9/Rose. And rather repeat what butterfly said, I'm just going to agree with her.

I'm very weary of Moffat. But I think Paul Cornell would do a better job if left in-charge of Who.

I did not like Martha at all in large part to how Freema portrayed her. But I think it would have been interesting if Donna was the companion for two series instead of one.

I actually like Girl in the Fireplace (aside from a few things) so I chose SitL/FotD over that.

Edited at 2009-01-26 03:26 am (UTC)
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on January 26th, 2009 11:53 am (UTC)
I would have loved Donna for two series, I really would have, but my wish would really have been for a different actress playing Martha and then Donna with two series after that. Ah well.
bubbles234bubbles234 on January 26th, 2009 03:03 am (UTC)
I opted for Billie staying on as Rose, because I didn't really get into Who untill around half way through S2, so while I really, really love 9, I'm much more attached to 10 and Rose. (Particularly Rose if I'm honest because I have now been a Billie fangirl for 10 years of my life, which is more that half. *glomps her* I still want Hannah/Belle though, please?)

I said I'd rather have David leaving with Paul Cornell taking over because although I adore both 10 and David, I've sort of accepted the end of his era (doesn't mean I won't sob like a baby when he leaves though) but I haven't quite come to terms with Moffat yet. I'm not sure I ever will, to be honest. Can I opt for Secret Option #3? David + Cornell (OTP!)

I opted for Donna in Series 3, based on the assumption that I would still get Series 4. Mainly because I ADORE Donna and would LOVE an extra series with her, but also because the storyarc in S3 irked me. I'm quite emotionally invested in my show, and as such I am invested in my ship. It really really bothered me to see another love-story-type-arc emerging so soon after Rose leaving (this hit particularly hard because, what with my somewhat late arrival into fandom, I'd only recently realised what a beautiful story the Doctor/Rose one is). I'm also not overly fond of Freema's acting. I don't think she's terrible I just think other people are a lot better... But the main issue I had was the arc because it just felt too soon. I think the best-mate arc would have fitted in a lot better here. Especially with Donna.

I opted to get rid of Sitl/FotD. It was a really hard choice because I hate all 3 of these episodes. GitF had the crap character continuity, ignored all previous stories (Moffat didn't even READ SR for crying out loud!) and, as you said, made the Doctor look like an asshole. It didn't fit in with the two series. When I first viewed it, I liked it because I wasn't really *watching* it. Since then, realised it's utter crap and I can't watch it anymore. But I've had time to wipe that from canon anyway. SitL/FotD actually make me physically angry and I haven't been able to repress them yet. It doesn't screw with my ship this time, but it does provide River Song, OOC Doctor, and worst of all OOC Donna. I really hate Moffat for what he did to her in that. Catherine Tate played it out beautifully of course, but Donna wasn't like that. Maybe she was pre-TRB but she grew up and she changed. The Doctor made her better. Moffat disregarded that so he could screw around with binary numbers (and be a sexist, ignorant pig while he was at it), throw in a love object all of his own because she was so "omg!awesome and super!speshul! and could do everything", and throw bloody CHICKEN THROUGH SHADOWS. Oh, and he made me not wanna hear the word "spoilers" ever again in my life, AND the Doctor opened the TARDIS with a click of his fingers (something he hasn't done since because he evidently realised it's stupid). Also I think David is probably leaving so he never has to act out that stupid River Song arc Moffat would undoubtedly have introduced.

Actually, ya know what? Screw it. I'm officially wiping Moffat out of canon. He can go and live with Donna's ending in JE.

(I apologise for the rambly comment. Especially the Moffat part. He just... does my head in. A lot. A lot a lot.)
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on January 26th, 2009 12:01 pm (UTC)
I haven't quite come to terms with Moffat yet. I'm not sure I ever will, to be honest. Can I opt for Secret Option #3? David + Cornell (OTP!)
I never will, and nope, no option #3. Honestly, if that were an option, it wouldn't even be an issue.
It really really bothered me to see another love-story-type-arc emerging so soon after Rose leaving
Ah, but this story arc actually PROLONGED the Doctor/Rose storyline. We had Rose such a huge part of series three *because* of the Martha unrequited love arc. If we had had an actress who could handle it, then it would have added this poignancy because it would have underscored the Doctor not having the person he loved. See, I believe the point was supposed to be that the Doctor wasn't going to be obvious or open about his pain over Rose, so we were supposed to get the parallel of someone loving someone so desperately, but yet for circumstances beyond their control, not having them. With Freema's lack of range and depth as an actress, it just didn't come out that way.
the main issue I had was the arc because it just felt too soon. I think the best-mate arc would have fitted in a lot better here.
But it wasn't a *love* story for the Doctor, or rather it was. Series three continued and expounded upon the Doctor/Rose love story because we saw the Doctor dealing with the aftermath of her loss, partially through him NOT seeing/feeling anything for Martha like that. With a best mate, that would have been easily swept under the rug because that kind of emotion wouldn't have been brought forth. Donna (or a best friend/mate) wouldn't have been jealous of Rose, and therefore the need to mention, prolong her presence in the Doctor's life wouldn't have been necessary. It was Martha's unrequited feelings for the Doctor that allowed the Doctor/Rose love story to continue and flourish in her absence.
I opted to get rid of Sitl/FotD. It was a really hard choice because I hate all 3 of these episodes. GitF had the crap character continuity, ignored all previous stories (Moffat didn't even READ SR for crying out loud!) and, as you said, made the Doctor look like an asshole. It didn't fit in with the two series. When I first viewed it, I liked it because I wasn't really *watching* it. Since then, realised it's utter crap and I can't watch it anymore. But I've had time to wipe that from canon anyway. SitL/FotD actually make me physically angry and I haven't been able to repress them yet. It doesn't screw with my ship this time, but it does provide River Song, OOC Doctor, and worst of all OOC Donna. I really hate Moffat for what he did to her in that. Catherine Tate played it out beautifully of course, but Donna wasn't like that. Maybe she was pre-TRB but she grew up and she changed. The Doctor made her better. Moffat disregarded that so he could screw around with binary numbers (and be a sexist, ignorant pig while he was at it), throw in a love object all of his own because she was so "omg!awesome and super!speshul! and could do everything", and throw bloody CHICKEN THROUGH SHADOWS. Oh, and he made me not wanna hear the word "spoilers" ever again in my life, AND the Doctor opened the TARDIS with a click of his fingers (something he hasn't done since because he evidently realised it's stupid). Also I think David is probably leaving so he never has to act out that stupid River Song arc Moffat would undoubtedly have introduced.
I do understand and agree with everything you said about Sitl/FotD, but I just hate GitF that much more.
Actually, ya know what? Screw it. I'm officially wiping Moffat out of canon. He can go and live with Donna's ending in JE.
I can't agree with this because considering the fact that Tate was leaving, I think that Donna's ending was absolutely beautiful, heartbreaking, but beautifully written and absolutely in character.
faith5by5_1013: Doctor Who: Nine/Rosefaith5by5_1013 on January 26th, 2009 03:06 am (UTC)
I agree with you on every single one of those.

I love the DT/BP chemistry and I would be sad to miss it, but Nine is my favorite DW character ever and another season with him would win out over an extra season with Billie Piper. But it's very hard to decide and it would be sad to not have at least one season with both David Tennant and Billie Piper. I actually probably wouldn't have watched season 3 if I didn't have all of season 2 to adjust to Ten. Rose was the reason I stuck with season 2. That and my friend telling me to watch seasons 2-4. But I still would rather have one more season with Nine.

It took me a long time to adjust to Ten because I was so emotionally attached to Nine, but I eventually did grow to love him because the writing was so amazing (with the exception of a few episodes and we all know which ones I'm referring to). So I think I could adjust to another Doctor, but I don't know if I will be able to watch the show with Moffat in charge.

I agree about liking the idea of Martha and the story behind her but having a problem with Freema playing her.

It was so hard for me to decide which Moffat episode I would get rid of because I hate both of those episodes. But GitF is even more painful to watch than SitL/FotD.
starlightmoonlastarlightmoonla on January 26th, 2009 03:14 am (UTC)
1. I went with Billi because it never felt like we had enough time with Ten and Rose. Almost like they had more time with each other - more adventures - than what we saw onscreen, if that makes sense. And I would have preferred seeing them through another year before the universe separated them.

Eccleston was fantastic as the Ninth Doctor and having him regenerate into Ten seemed very natural, even though I was sad when I first saw the episode. ^_^"

2. There's no question about this one. I'd rather have DT and RTD leave with PC in charger than have Moffat in charge. You have no idea how happy - and saddened of course - when I heard DT wouldn't be back for S5 and that was mainly because I feared that I'd eventually hate Ten under Moffat's writing. And while Moffat might be a good writer, I just can't trust him with Ten or with the companions seeing as they don't seem to be important in his episodes.

3. Awww Martha. I'm sure Freema is a lovely person but the unrequited story - for me - would have worked a lot better with a more experienced actress. There's just a certain subtlety to the role that wouldn't have left me cringing for a lot of the series.

That and I like that Donna's story didn't come until the fourth series because the Doctor got to know someone who saw his life as being dangerous, who said no to coming on board, and she just wasn't ready to travel at that time.

That and the third year also gave us a grieving Doctor which was a very interesting, and right path to take, especially after losing Rose.

4. There's no question here.. SitL/FotD. Those would go immediately in my mind. GitF.... I still have issues with that episode but I've sort of learned to accept its existence as a nice building block for the Doctor/Rose relationship.

But the fourth year two-parter is one that I seriously can't watch anymore. It just premiered on BBCA in the last few weeks and I couldn't see it because it was so out of character for the Doctor, I hated the way Donna was treated, and without them we could have gotten at least one other good episode in that year.

So yeah I have quite a few more issues with the two parter than the second series episode. ^_^"
(Deleted comment)
Arabian: David Tennant_01arabian on January 26th, 2009 04:01 am (UTC)
Must go to sleep, but had to respond real quick. Moffat wrote GitF and as out of character and awful as Ten was in that, is likely how awful and out of character Ten would be on a regular basis with Moffat in charge. And THAT is why (despite loving Ten and Tennant), I wouldn't watch Who even with Tennant with Moffat in charge.
theyellow_daisy: Toe2Toetheyellow_daisy on January 26th, 2009 04:13 am (UTC)
Intresting poll!

1. This was the toughest question for me. While I adore Ten/Rose I would have loved to see more of Nine/Rose. They had such a wonderful chemistry with each other, and they completed each other SO well! But the stories of S2 would have been very different with Nine, being as hard as he was.

2. I've said this before other places, and I'll say it again. I'm wmore worried about the change from RTD to Moffat, then I am with the change from Tennant to Smith. While Moffat is a wonderful writer, and does good stuff, I don't think his stories are consistantly amazing. Neither were RTD's but I think he kept storylines pretty well, nad ususally never failed to amaze me.

3. I didn't mind the character,but I did mind Freema. She wasn't terrible, and I enjoyed her S4 episodes, but she just got on my nerves.

4. Second choice, easily! I hated River. And the fact that Moffat has hinted that we may be seeing her again, worries me. Although I do think that 'Forrest of the Dead' was a lot better then 'SitL'
Arabian: David & Billie Dancingarabian on January 27th, 2009 02:02 am (UTC)
And the fact that Moffat has hinted that we may be seeing her again, worries me.
And ... that would be another reason I'm not watching Moffat's Who.
Flying Mint Bunnyharo on January 26th, 2009 07:43 am (UTC)
I chose an extra year of Billie in number one largely because I think that Nine regenerating into Ten after losing Rose makes no narrative sense. Fun-loving and goofy Ten as a regeneration that was able to occur (imho) because of Rose's impact on the Doctor and I don't believe he would have regenerated the same had he regenerated after losing Rose. That being said, that aside, I'd really just love to have another season of Rose. I love Nine, but I'm not particularly in it for the actors (I know, I'm lame) and I think his story arc was pure perfection as was. I wouldn't change a thing about it.

On two, I'd definitely choose Tennant leaving and us getting Cornell. I wanted the Doctor to leave after the specials. I was absolutely terrified of Moffat getting free reign of Ten's character. Heck him touching the Doctor period is worrisome enough.

...I really wanted Cornell.

As for the Martha question, I didn't vote because I'm honestly perfectly fine with Freema. She's not as strong an actor as Catherine or Billie, without a doubt, but I think she did all that was good enough. I can't imagine anyone but Freema playing Martha. My small problems with the Martha arc come not from her acting, but from some writing flubs here and there. I feel like for the first several episodes, sometimes the writers didn't know quite where to take her. However, from HN/FoB onward, her characterization is brilliant. I wouldn't want the Martha arc replaced with Donna. I really feel the Martha arc was important, and I actually appreciated the Doctor's raw emotion throughout season three and was endlessly intrigued by how the Doctor and Martha's (lack of) communication skills played into their relationship. I LOVED the resolution of Martha's arc and I absolutely adored how the Doctor's character played out in season three. Grief so real and so visceral. It boggles the mind how people can complain about it (edit for clarity, I mean people complaining about the fact he grieved because omg it hurt Martha's feelings and he never did that in Classic Who or whatever). Heaven forbid the Doctor act like a real person (errr alien) who has lost something so unimaginably dear to him.

As for the Moff, they're both bad. Upon rewatching GitF, I honestly think the writing in it is just as bad as the Library. Yes, it's pretty, but even outside the continuity of Doctor Who, it's simply not well written in my opinion? The mind-meld? Soooo lazy. The fact that we're supposed to believe in their luv when they've known each other for what, eight hours max before the Doctor jumps through the mirror? Please. Seriously. The dialogue. OHGOD the dialogue. Soooo cheesy. The sexism, rampant. The treatment of Madame de Pompadour? This immensely brilliant woman was shown doing the following- swooning over the Doctor, pining over the Doctor, coming onto the Doctor, gossiping, and only at one point doing something that remotely showed her strength as a historical figure (standing up to the court when the Clockwork men showed up). Seriously, wtf. Yeah the Doctor would be all over that. Um no.

Yet despite all of that, I somehow find the library two-parter... more annoying. I have no idea why.

edit: Thought of a couple of reasons.
1- Donna getting shoved to the sidelines. Donna had only one season. It's not fair to shove her aside for Moffat's special snowflake two-parter.
2- GitF is self-contained. We see the beginning of the Doctor and Reinette's relationship and the end. But with River, it's this open book. He told her his bloody NAME, and yes I know he had to but wtf. And for all we know, in Moffat's mind they had years of ridiculously OOC adventures and that's more irritating to me.
3- Not only was the Doctor terribly OOC in Library episodes, but Donna was bad as well. In GitF Rose was pretty cardboard, but her characterization didn't bug me much.

Edited at 2009-01-26 07:55 am (UTC)
sensiblecatsensiblecat on January 26th, 2009 11:35 am (UTC)
I found the first question the most difficult because either would have been fantastic and I loved Nine. I finally chose the extra Tennant/Piper option because I felt that the story arc of S1 was perfectly timed and I would hate to interfere with that. By contrast, the time we saw Ten and Rose happy together was all too brief - I felt their relationship was very uncertain and problematic for the first half of S2.

Question two - absolutely no contest. I did not want the Moff to get his hands on Tennant. So much so that I felt considerable relief when DT announced he was going. He was a part of the vision and feel of the whole RTD era, so it seems right that someone else takes over now.

S3 was a real curates' egg for me. I liked the Doctor's grief very much, but I tend to agree with the comments on FA's lack of confidence and experience as an actress. I think they needed someone with more presence to carry such a potentially thankless role. It could have worked if there had been two companions. I think Torchwood showed that FA is a very good team player but she doesn't handle one-to-one relationships as well.

I really think Donna could have made the story of the Doctor's grief and recovery a fascinating one, but we'd still have needed a second companion to handle the Master plot. A bit more of Jack/Ten/Martha would have worked well - Utopia was superb.

And so to Q4. I take everyone's point about GITF but if you screw up your eyes you can still read that as fitting into the continuity of the Doctor scared of Rose and trying to push her away. It was also quite well written in places. I don't think SITL/FOTD had those virtues. It was repetitive, with too many elements of earlier SM scripts repeated. It sold Donna short, the ending was sexist and dissatisfying and it presented RTD with the dilemma of having two very similar storylines. "Turn Left" was vital to the overall narrative arc and I think SM's unwillingness to acknowledge that and accommodate it bodes ill for the future.

However, my biggest regret of all is that CT couldn't be persuaded to stay for the Specials. I would find the whole JE resolution so much better if Ten had regenerated into Eleven and Rose had been left with Duplicate Ten. I think it would have made an emotional sense, wrapping up the RTD story of the romantic and lonely Doctor in a very satisfying way.
postverta: doc/rosepostverta on January 26th, 2009 03:22 pm (UTC)
1. I voted for Billie staying on because as others have said the ending of series 1 with nine regenerating just seemed right. Don't get me wrong I absolutely adore Eccleston and nine! Heck I was one of those people who was all 'ewww who is this guy? He'll never be as good as Eccleston!' when Tennant took over. Plus I would have loved another series with Ten and Rose, they just made everything so happy, I miss the happy dammit!

2. This one was sooo difficult to chose! In the end I went for Tennant staying. I think however bad things would have got in S5 David would have kept me watching regardless. Plus I think David might have been able to keep the Doctor more in character despite Moffat's writing. Whereas now Moffat is going to be able to write his own Doctor who will probably be a complete asshole! Although can I jump on the bandwagon of Cornell as showrunner with David staying? haha.

3. I had to go with Donna on this one. The biggest problem I always had with Martha in series 3 was the fact that she was so insensitive to the fact that the Doctor had lost someone and was grieving. I know he wasn't the most obvious about it and didn't tell her what had happened, but come on Donna noticed even though her wedding had just been screwed up and her fiance turned out to be an evil bastard. I also think that Donna would have helped the Doctor with his grief in series 3 as she would have in a way understood. Although a better actress would probably have made the series 3 arc a lot better!

4. This one was quite possibly the easiest one to vote on. However much I dislike the library episodes, GiTF is the only episode of the new series that I absolutely refuse to watch! I saw it the one time when it aired and was absolutely horrified by it! I hate it, hate it! Its sort of goes 'continuity? what continuity?' plus it made the Doctor look like a complete bastard after what he'd said in SR. I think I was more disappointed than anything else in the library episodes. You have these really creep shadow aliens and you put them in a space suit?! It was like Moffat's greatest hits with a pinch of 'The Time Traveler's Wife' thrown in! Although I absolutely HATE (sorry bout the caps but I think they are necessary)the finger clicking at the end!! I wanted the TARDIS to shut the doors in his face. It was so OOC for the Doctor, he doesn't do that sort of thing! Actually can we get rid of both GiTF and the library episodes?
eolivet on January 26th, 2009 07:45 pm (UTC)
What a cool poll -- and a great idea!!! :D Very thought-provoking. ;)

I think the only answers where we differed were no Martha vs. different actress. I actually thought Donna as a Companion after Rose made a whole lot of sense (replacing the love interest with the anti-love interest, as it were). Other than her contributions in S4 with the Osterhaugen key, I don't see much value in having Martha there. I know you don't like FA, but I don't think the series as a whole needed the Martha story to progress. It did perfectly fine transitioning from "Doomsday" to "The Runaway Bride" -- all Donna would've had to do is stay at the end (which would've made more sense than what actually happened, IMHO :p )

Plus, Donna in the S3 finale, traveling around the world? That would've ruled. ;)

I also would take back SitL/FotD, because while you can sort of look at GitF (and Madame DuP) as a one-time abomination...she did die. There is no more story left to tell. Giving the Doctor a wife was insane, and making her Alex Kingston was worse. ;p I always look at GitF as Ten trying to distance himself from Rose after the "School Reunion" convo about him having to leave her (even though Moffat intended no such thing)...I can't do the same thing with SitL/FotD. That's just a big, more permanent "screw you" to the 'shippers, IMHO. :/
Arabian: Dr Who - Chris/Rusty/Billiearabian on January 26th, 2009 11:08 pm (UTC)
I'll just say again, it was NEVER said (or really even implied) in the script that she was his wife. All we knew is that (a) they cared about each other -- which can be said about pretty much every companion the Doctor travels with, and (b) that he told her his name. BUT, he HAD to tell her his name when he meets her in the future because if he didn't tell her his name, Donna is stuck in the library, the universe isn't saved. So, yeah, in the script, there is nothing that says she's anything other than a future companion he travels with on occasion. Yes, spec built it up to more, and Moffat made some sexist, assinine comments about it afterwards, BUT, in canon, on the script ... nada.
I always look at GitF as Ten trying to distance himself from Rose after the "School Reunion" convo about him having to leave her (even though Moffat intended no such thing
I've tried to look at it that way too, but it doesn't work because he simply doesn't seem to care about Rose, period. He's just all about Reinette.

I get all the votes and reasons for the library two-parter, I do. I just have such a seething hatred for GitF, there are no words. (And I do honestly think that part of it is because in SitL/FotD, David didn't play along with Moffat's vision. In GitF, whether because he was still so new in the role, or was just jonesing so badly for Sophia Myles, he DID play along with Moffat's vision of the Doctor's great love for Reinette. And seeing the DOCTOR do that, act that way, and while doing so, treating Rose as well as he does, oh Mickey? That was just utterly painful.)

Edited at 2009-01-26 11:09 pm (UTC)
eolivet on January 27th, 2009 05:55 pm (UTC)
it was NEVER said (or really even implied) in the script that she was his wife.

Huh. I definitely believe you, because you'd certainly know better than I would. Maybe it was just fandom conventional wisdom that got turned into canon (like Scully's strawberry-scented shampoo in X-Files stories ;)

Even though I haaaated Donna's storyline in those eps with a fiery passion, at least CT acted the crap out of it. :x
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on January 28th, 2009 02:05 am (UTC)
Yup, conventional wisdom based on months of speculation. There's NOTHING implicit or even implied in the script.

Catherine Tate acted the hell out of it, especially the last scene when she basically loses her "children." She's so damn good.
Gwynevere1gwynevere1 on January 26th, 2009 11:19 pm (UTC)
1. I adore Nine. He's my favorite Doctor, and I think that Christopher Eccelston is an incredible actor.
However, Nine's story felt Complete. To continue with him would undermine the beauty of the character's arc.

2. I actually wish Tennant had left with "Journey's End." I feel like Ten has outstayed his welcome.

3. This was the hardest choice, but I've suspected for a long time that I would have liked Martha more if a better actress had played her.

4. I liked GiTF, while I was only lukewarm on SitL/FotD, so the choice was easy for me. However, I think SitL/FotD would have worked better as a single episode, rather than a two-parter. In particular, I think "Journey's End" would have been stronger if it had more time to develop and should have been given the two episodes instead of the extra library episode.

YMMV, of course.
Arabian: Dr Who (9) - FDarabian on January 27th, 2009 01:55 am (UTC)
However, Nine's story felt Complete. To continue with him would undermine the beauty of the character's arc.
Honestly, I'm almost beginning to rethink my answer because so many are commenting on this and it really does make sense.
However, I think SitL/FotD would have worked better as a single episode, rather than a two-parter. In particular, I think "Journey's End" would have been stronger if it had more time to develop and should have been given the two episodes instead of the extra library episode.

YMMV, of course.
I actually agree 100% with this. As happy as I am with what RTD DID give us with TSE and JE, I really do think that he (and we) were short-changed by Moffat getting that two-parter. *sigh*