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28 September 2008 @ 08:27 am
'Journey's End' cut scene  
Saw this at thistwilight's journal and it confirmed my belief about something in the finale, so yay!

    SILENCE, AS DAVROS GLIDES AWAY FROM THEM. HOLD.

    ONLY THE NOISE OF HUGE HYDRAULICS FROM ABOVE. THE DOCTOR LOOKING UP, TRAPPED, HELPLESS.

    THEN QUIET, INTIMATE, ACROSS THE DISTANCE:

    ROSE: You never did finish that sentence, did you?

    THE DOCTOR: What sentence...?

    ROSE (smiles): Like you don't know. Last time I saw you. On Bad Wolf Bay. You said, 'Rose Tyler...'

    THE DOCTOR...isn't it cold?

    ROSE: Come on. Properly.

    THE DOCTOR: Does it need saying?

    ROSE: Yeah.

    (Pause. Sad smile between them).

    Then, just as quiet

    DAVROS: Such intimacy. So different from the Doctor I once knew.
I like this just because it proves my belief that Ten was just NOT willing to say the words and that it had nothing to do with him being "bad cop" to Ten II's "good cop" in their last scene at Bad Wolf Bay as some have suggested. I had no problem with the idea of how Rusty ended the Rose arc (the execution? Yeah, I had some quibbles, but the idea of it was great). Talking specifically about the final scene, I loved how it was played out that Rose was confused about the whole situation, still fighting to be with Ten because he was the man she loved before that moment when it was made perfectly clear that she could never truly have the man that she loved fully if he was the full-Time Lord.

That bit of the scene, a section played so beautifully by the Tennant, was easily my favorite part of the entire episode. I loved it because it conveyed so much about how the two Doctors were the same, and yet different and how that allowed Rose to make her choice without thought. How each Doctor answered Rose's question was all the telling that Rose needed to make her decision, spontaneous though it was.

Ten even then couldn't say the words because of who he was, how he lived, his rules, etc., but Ten II could say the words because he had that bit of human in him, enough to know that, yeah, it needed saying. And because he could say the words, Rose was able to throw down her guard and grab the man and kiss him. And Tennant was wonderful at conveying Ten seeing that, taking in that Ten II could say and do things to and with Rose that he never could, because this Doctor -- the full Time Lord -- wasn't meant to have that kind of life. But Ten II -- the half Time-Lord/half-Human -- could.

And this small snippet above just helped confirm that belief for me. So, on one hand, yeah, I would have LOVED the inclusion of this scene, but also, I'm not sure how it would have played out during the context of the scene above without making Rose look quite, quite selfish to non-die-hard-Rose fans for thinking of their *relationship* in the middle of the destruction of the universe. Still, I'm glad I know about it now because, again, it helped confirm my own take on it.
 
 
 
Diana: For You -- Doctor/Rosebutterfly on September 28th, 2008 12:46 pm (UTC)
Aw. I agree with you about how people who aren't fond of Rose would have read her in that scene, but I completely agree with you. It's nice to see that, yeah, the Doctor as he was couldn't admit everything to Rose. That it was too much for him to say (because it resonates through all the other stuff and is why, I think, Russell came up with the idea of TenII/Rose in the first place, even though he thought he'd be playing Eleven against TenII). There's something frighteningly brave about humanity in DW -- an openness and vulnerability that the Doctor can't allow himself to have because the weight of the universe is always pressing down on him. The Doctor does very obviously love Rose in that enormous and scary way -- but he's even more aware than most people of the power that exists in words. Even TenII whispers his love to Rose, because it's private and theirs -- not Jackie's, not Donna's, and not even TenI's at that point. He's creating a... pocket universe where his love is safe.

Much like finding out that Russell had been planning the TenII/Rose ending for ages before it happened, I find this comforting in the context of their relationship.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - One Heartarabian on September 28th, 2008 02:16 pm (UTC)
Aw. I agree with you about how people who aren't fond of Rose would have read her in that scene, but I completely agree with you.

It's totally true; Rose-haters would have been: 'OMIGOD! See!?!? Rose is such a selfish biatch!!"

It's nice to see that, yeah, the Doctor as he was couldn't admit everything to Rose. That it was too much for him to say (because it resonates through all the other stuff and is why, I think, Russell came up with the idea of TenII/Rose in the first place, even though he thought he'd be playing Eleven against TenII).

Right, as the Doctor's been written by Rusty especially, there's no way he'd just admit it. I mean, the guy came up with what three? four? alternatives to saying it, often in life-and-death situations. It just wasn't gonna happen. And Rose, as amazing as she is, IS human and yeah, it DOES need saying.

There's something frighteningly brave about humanity in DW -- an openness and vulnerability that the Doctor can't allow himself to have because the weight of the universe is always pressing down on him.

Yup, and that's been pointed out time and time again by Rusty in small ways, lines of dialogue, subtext here and there going back to the first series, as I've been seeing in my rewatch-reviews. (Grr, Moffat's first episode next. Any wonder why I'm two weeks behind on doing the next one?)

The Doctor does very obviously love Rose in that enormous and scary way -- but he's even more aware than most people of the power that exists in words. Even TenII whispers his love to Rose, because it's private and theirs -- not Jackie's, not Donna's, and not even TenI's at that point. He's creating a... pocket universe where his love is safe.

Oh, man, I LOVE this!! I never thought of his whispering the words in that context and I absolutely love it; I'm so cribbing this for the JE rewatch-review. (Man, I'm cribbing a lot from you at this point, aren't I?)

Much like finding out that Russell had been planning the TenII/Rose ending for ages before it happened, I find this comforting in the context of their relationship.

Yup, yup, yup. I love Rusty.
Diana: Human Forever - Doctor/Rosebutterfly on September 28th, 2008 02:40 pm (UTC)
On a side-note, because I didn't mention before...

"Rose Tyler... isn't it cold?" cracks me up. I think that's my saddest thing to lose about the placing of this scene (yet it so wouldn't have worked for him to try to joke during the revised BWB scene).

It's totally true; Rose-haters would have been: 'OMIGOD! See!?!? Rose is such a selfish biatch!!"

Hee. Exactly. And, you know, Rose is selfish. But not all selfishness is bad -- Rose is asking him when they're trapped anyway. Neither of them can actually do anything at the moment, so no one is in danger by her asking him (much like no one was placed in danger by the 'werewolf' hug). She's selfish in the sense that she actually goes after what she wants and places her happiness as a higher priority than how other people want her to live her life.

Right, as the Doctor's been written by Rusty especially, there's no way he'd just admit it. I mean, the guy came up with what three? four? alternatives to saying it, often in life-and-death situations.

"Oh... she knows." Yeah. *pets the Doctor*

It just wasn't gonna happen. And Rose, as amazing as she is, IS human and yeah, it DOES need saying.

My very favorite part of the BWB scene that doesn't involve touching or kissing is Rose's "Fuck you, yes, it does" look after the Doctor says, "Does it need saying?"

Yup, and that's been pointed out time and time again by Rusty in small ways, lines of dialogue, subtext here and there going back to the first series, as I've been seeing in my rewatch-reviews. (Grr, Moffat's first episode next. Any wonder why I'm two weeks behind on doing the next one?)

Hee! Very understandable. I'm also behind on mine, but I'm not feeling very bad about it because I'm writing fic instead, and I haven't felt this inspired about fictional writing for quite some time. But this universe just kinda grabbed me by the shoulders and dragged me into it. I have a timeline. I have notes (character and plot).

(and because I apparently really can't not take the opportunity to point out an annoyance of mine about Moffat -- what's up with the Doctor trying to tell Rose what the psychic paper does? The Doctor knows that Rose is smart and remembers things. As early as "The Unquiet Dead" he gives her complicated directions without worrying that she can't follow them. The Doctor knows that he's already told her about psychic paper and it annoys me that Moffat feels the need to have the Doctor treat Rose like an idiot so that he can do a cheap sexual punchline later on with Rose and Jack. That's my Moffat pet peeve of the day. Also, Moffat is apparently unaware that cows are not the only animals that produce milk. They aren't even the only animals that produce milk that is sold for human consumption.)

Oh, man, I LOVE this!! I never thought of his whispering the words in that context and I absolutely love it; I'm so cribbing this for the JE rewatch-review. (Man, I'm cribbing a lot from you at this point, aren't I?)

Hee! Totally feel free, as always.

I really love how intimate that moment is -- he really grabs his chance to make that moment just about himself and Rose, with the arm-stroking and the lean and Rose's reaction to it is so wonderful -- she gets that it's really him and that this is something that he's always wanted to say but never could and now he finally can and they have this perfect moment together (and, wow, I can completely understand why Ten I had to leave then because that had to be stomping on his hearts like hell, no matter how badly he wants Rose to have a happy life with someone who can actually go through all the stages of life with her). And then she'd reminded that while this is the Doctor, the Doctor's also leaving, so it's complicated, but that moment of connection totally sells me that they'll be okay in that parallel world.

Ten II really has the freedom to let himself be completely Rose's in a way that he never thought he could be as The Last of the Time Lords (though, as "Father's Day" demonstrates, he so totally already is). And he wants that so much.

Edited at 2008-09-28 02:50 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on September 28th, 2008 04:40 pm (UTC)
And, you know, Rose is selfish. But not all selfishness is bad -- Rose is asking him when they're trapped anyway. Neither of them can actually do anything at the moment, so no one is in danger by her asking him (much like no one was placed in danger by the 'werewolf' hug). She's selfish in the sense that she actually goes after what she wants and places her happiness as a higher priority than how other people want her to live her life.

Yes. She's selfish but in a normal person way, it doesn't make her bad or not selfless when she needs to be. Not everyone can be Ghandi.

My very favorite part of the BWB scene that doesn't involve touching or kissing is Rose's "Fuck you, yes, it does" look after the Doctor says, "Does it need saying?"

Oh, GOD YES!!!!!!! I love that look so much. Actually when I was reading the script excerpt and saw the "yeah," I thought, Billie didn't need the dialogue, she more than communicated that sentiment and with such fervor with just a look. It was fabulous!

(and because I apparently really can't not take the opportunity to point out an annoyance of mine about Moffat -- what's up with the Doctor trying to tell Rose what the psychic paper does? The Doctor knows that Rose is smart and remembers things. As early as "The Unquiet Dead" he gives her complicated directions without worrying that she can't follow them. The Doctor knows that he's already told her about psychic paper and it annoys me that Moffat feels the need to have the Doctor treat Rose like an idiot so that he can do a cheap sexual punchline later on with Rose and Jack. That's my Moffat pet peeve of the day. Also, Moffat is apparently unaware that cows are not the only animals that produce milk. They aren't even the only animals that produce milk that is sold for human consumption.)

I haven't rewatched it yet, but I'm sure I'll agree with you. Moffat, sigh, just Moffat.

I really love how intimate that moment is -- he really grabs his chance to make that moment just about himself and Rose, with the arm-stroking and the lean and Rose's reaction to it is so wonderful -- she gets that it's really him and that this is something that he's always wanted to say but never could and now he finally can and they have this perfect moment together (and, wow, I can completely understand why Ten I had to leave then because that had to be stomping on his hearts like hell, no matter how badly he wants Rose to have a happy life with someone who can actually go through all the stages of life with her). And then she'd reminded that while this is the Doctor, the Doctor's also leaving, so it's complicated, but that moment of connection totally sells me that they'll be okay in that parallel world.

This is just beautiful, absolutely beautiful. I may not just crib this, but actually quote you here. So frickin' perfect. You captured the intimacy and rightness of that moment so well.

Ten II really has the freedom to let himself be completely Rose's in a way that he never thought he could be as The Last of the Time Lords (though, as "Father's Day" demonstrates, he so totally already is). And he wants that so much.

But that was Nine. And I DO think that Nine, given more time, WOULD have expressed himself to Rose. Ten seems to be more open with his affection in one way, but Nine was much more open in his vulnerability TO loving her. Which I think is another way that we see how in small part, Ten II IS Ten with a dash of not just Donna, but Nine as well.
Diana: Back Again -- Doctor/Rosebutterfly on September 28th, 2008 07:01 pm (UTC)
Yes. She's selfish but in a normal person way, it doesn't make her bad or not selfless when she needs to be. Not everyone can be Ghandi.

Yep. And it's those traits of hers that can be flaws that make her interesting -- she's selfish, impulsive, sometimes childish and jealous. She isn't a cardboard cut-out of perfection (and the Doctor, of course, comes with his own list of flaws -- arrogance being very high on the list).

Oh, GOD YES!!!!!!! I love that look so much. Actually when I was reading the script excerpt and saw the "yeah," I thought, Billie didn't need the dialogue, she more than communicated that sentiment and with such fervor with just a look. It was fabulous!

She is so amazing (I see that you also started watching SDoaCG and she's so great there, too. She makes Hannah/Belle feel so likable, but in a way that's completely different from Rose Tyler).

I haven't rewatched it yet, but I'm sure I'll agree with you. Moffat, sigh, just Moffat.

I just wish that TDD/TEC was skippable in the same way that GitF, "Blink", and SitL/FotD. But he got to introduce the reoccuring character of Jack and so... unhappily, it's a necessary set of episodes (it's funny, because I didn't notice this the first time around, because I hadn't seen beneath the surface of Moffat yet, but I don't like Jack until "Boomtown". He's much smarmier in TDD/TEC. Dude! All the smarminess he put into Jack in those episodes, he channeled into Ten in his later episodes!). Otherwise, I would so skip that thing. Moffat's episodes just get worse the more I watch them -- the good things about them tend to be 'one-time only' stuff, like the suspense of it, while the bad things are characterization and plot stuff that just lingers on in badness. With every other episode of the show (even Raynor's Dalek episodes), they gain something with rewatching -- a deeper insight into the characters at the very least. But because Moffat writes the characters 'off', his episodes aren't good places to go for any kind of depth (even through his own run of episodes, he contradicts himself on characterization, as Ten loses the ability to understand jealousy in GitF when he understood it perfectly well in TDD/TEC).

But that was Nine. And I DO think that Nine, given more time, WOULD have expressed himself to Rose. Ten seems to be more open with his affection in one way, but Nine was much more open in his vulnerability TO loving her. Which I think is another way that we see how in small part, Ten II IS Ten with a dash of not just Donna, but Nine as well.

I think that Nine was much more raw. Bleeding all over the place. And Ten was scabbed over better.

It's like Rose says in "Father's Day" -- she knows how sad the Doctor is. And Ten does a better job of covering that up, even with Rose (even with how happy Rose makes him).

Edited at 2008-09-28 07:05 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Dr Who (Never Change)arabian on September 29th, 2008 12:48 am (UTC)
"Oh, GOD YES!!!!!!! I love that look so much. Actually when I was reading the script excerpt and saw the "yeah," I thought, Billie didn't need the dialogue, she more than communicated that sentiment and with such fervor with just a look. It was fabulous!"

She is so amazing (I see that you also started watching SDoaCG and she's so great there, too. She makes Hannah/Belle feel so likable, but in a way that's completely different from Rose Tyler).


Yes, she's so, so, soooo good. I love, love, love the looks and talking into the camera because she makes it feel so natural and real as opposed to fake and studied. She's just amazing. I love her so.

I just wish that TDD/TEC was skippable in the same way that GitF, "Blink", and SitL/FotD.

YES!!!!!!!

But he got to introduce the reoccuring character of Jack and so... unhappily, it's a necessary set of episodes (it's funny, because I didn't notice this the first time around, because I hadn't seen beneath the surface of Moffat yet, but I don't like Jack until "Boomtown". He's much smarmier in TDD/TEC. Dude! All the smarminess he put into Jack in those episodes, he channeled into Ten in his later episodes!). Otherwise, I would so skip that thing. Moffat's episodes just get worse the more I watch them -- the good things about them tend to be 'one-time only' stuff, like the suspense of it, while the bad things are characterization and plot stuff that just lingers on in badness. With every other episode of the show (even Raynor's Dalek episodes), they gain something with rewatching -- a deeper insight into the characters at the very least. But because Moffat writes the characters 'off', his episodes aren't good places to go for any kind of depth (even through his own run of episodes, he contradicts himself on characterization, as Ten loses the ability to understand jealousy in GitF when he understood it perfectly well in TDD/TEC).

I agree with all of this, BUT, I will give that no matter how many times I watch them the two dancing scenes still get me ... which, of course, is owed entirely to the awesome chemistry between Billie and Christopher Eccleston, but still. I do love those two moments. I dunno, I'll see how I feel after the rewatch, sigh.

I think that Nine was much more raw. Bleeding all over the place. And Ten was scabbed over better.

Yeah, that's a perfect description of the two of them.

It's like Rose says in "Father's Day" -- she knows how sad the Doctor is. And Ten does a better job of covering that up, even with Rose (even with how happy Rose makes him).

Yeah, but I think that was just Rose and what she did for him because we saw him getting better, happier towards the end of s1 and that just continued through series2. I don't think he was really hit with the angst-o-rama again the way he was pre-Rose until post-Rose.
Diana: Cuteness -- Rose with Tenbutterfly on September 29th, 2008 03:09 am (UTC)
Yes, she's so, so, soooo good. I love, love, love the looks and talking into the camera because she makes it feel so natural and real as opposed to fake and studied. She's just amazing. I love her so.

She's so good at being real while being another person. That's like... the purest essence of what acting is and she's just brilliant at it.

I agree with all of this, BUT, I will give that no matter how many times I watch them the two dancing scenes still get me ... which, of course, is owed entirely to the awesome chemistry between Billie and Christopher Eccleston, but still. I do love those two moments. I dunno, I'll see how I feel after the rewatch, sigh.

Oh, yeah -- the chemistry between the actors carries a lot (much like David and Catherine's chemistry makes SitL/FotD almost tolerable). Chris and Billie play all their scenes awesomely.

Yeah, but I think that was just Rose and what she did for him because we saw him getting better, happier towards the end of s1 and that just continued through series2. I don't think he was really hit with the angst-o-rama again the way he was pre-Rose until post-Rose.

Oh, yeah, definitely. Rose getting torn away from him was that scab getting scrapped off, leaving raw skin behind that needed to restart the healing process all over again.
Arabian: David & Billie Dancingarabian on September 29th, 2008 01:22 pm (UTC)
She's so good at being real while being another person. That's like... the purest essence of what acting is and she's just brilliant at it.

Yuppers! In the last rewatch-review I did of FD, I wrote this about her: It seems such a simple thing, but many actors -- no matter how good they are -- are incapable of pulling off what Piper does so effortlessly, scene after scene, episode after episode: Being so real, so very believable.

the chemistry between the actors carries a lot (much like David and Catherine's chemistry makes SitL/FotD almost tolerable).

Just their scenes though. Honestly, I think it's Catherine that is the only watchable aspect of those eps. If she's in the scene, it almost worked. Without her? Blechs-ville!

Chris and Billie play all their scenes awesomely.

Like I'm gonna argue with that, LOL!

"Yeah, but I think that was just Rose and what she did for him because we saw him getting better, happier towards the end of s1 and that just continued through series2. I don't think he was really hit with the angst-o-rama again the way he was pre-Rose until post-Rose."

Oh, yeah, definitely. Rose getting torn away from him was that scab getting scrapped off, leaving raw skin behind that needed to restart the healing process all over again.


Very true. We got to see Nine angsting through the first-half of s1, but we didn't get to the Ten angsting until TRB and then it lastly on and off for the whole following season and it still hasn't quite healed. Oh, Doctor.
Frances: DW - Ten/Rose - beachgoldy_dollar on September 28th, 2008 02:58 pm (UTC)
Haha. I think it's for those reasons that I kind of hate the scene and am glad Russell changed it. I just... find the idea that the Doctor isn't allowed to love or express love REALLY frustrating.

I mean, the universe is *ending* and the Doctor has finally been reunited with the woman he's spent years mourning over and he still won't tell her he loves her? Is he EVER going to grow? Or is the point of the Doctor to be miserable and alone and pushing away the people he cares about forever? I'm not sure how it makes any sense at all except that RTD seems to think he needs to preserve this idea that the Doctor is at least partially asexual for the Old School fans and... argh.

Yeah, I obviously have some issues. :)
Arabian: Dr Who (10)arabian on September 28th, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
Haha. I think it's for those reasons that I kind of hate the scene and am glad Russell changed it. I just... find the idea that the Doctor isn't allowed to love or express love REALLY frustrating.

I think that's the key there: "isn't *allowed." I don't perceive it as that at all. He certainly is allowed to do so, he certainly can ... but the self-inflicted guilt and weight of the universe that he carries has made him consciously choose not to because he doesn't believe he deserves it. He needs to repent for annihilating his race, the Daleks and the ripples that destroyed thousands of other innocent races. That is a pretty HUGE thing to deal with, so I can certainly, easily buy that he does hold himself accountable to the degree that he can not allow himself to drop his guard. He's all that is left ... and it's HIS fault that he's all that is left. True or not, that is how he genuinely (and, to me, understandably) feels.

I mean, the universe is *ending* and the Doctor has finally been reunited with the woman he's spent years mourning over and he still won't tell her he loves her?

Not in the circumstance above with Davros right there feeding his guilt issues, no. Had they just reunited without that Davros guilt-trip likely. And in time had there been no Ten II and the two were able to stay together, definitely.

Is he EVER going to grow?

He did; he has. He didn't just give her up to be miserable, he didn't just say 'oh well, life sucks and so do I for all I've caused, you go away now so I can wallow in self-pity.' He looked at the situation and saw that here was himself, with the ability to live a full, complete life with the woman he desperately loves, without having to hold back for any reason (legitimate or not). She could be happy, truly happy and a part of him would be happy, truly happy that she could have that. So he can now carry on with what he feels is his responsibility with a clear heart knowing that he gave the love of his life the greatest gift that he could possibly have ever imagined giving her.

Or is the point of the Doctor to be miserable and alone and pushing away the people he cares about forever?

But, I don't think he will be miserable and alone, right after losing Rose AND Donna? Yeah, he was miserable and alone, but it was right after. I know some think I give TMOTS too much credit, but it clearly took place after JE and was scripted by RTD, and it DID show a content Doctor. Will he be as happy as he was with Rose? No, but he found some happiness with Donna, and a joy in exploring the universe again a bit ... and he did that while mourning Rose and thinking neither one of them would never have that true happiness.

Now he has that and there will be a contentedness, a quiet joy when he thinks of her with the perfect him (in his mind) for her. Yes, it will be paired with the inevitable sadness that that life is not his, but he loves her so much that her happiness -- something he knew she did NOT have without any him there with her -- is tantamount to his happiness that he'll always have that, and he'll always know that there was a him who was able to love his Rose as fully and completely as possible.

Yeah, I obviously have some issues. :)

We all have issues about something, even in the fandoms we love.

Edited at 2008-09-28 04:53 pm (UTC)
eolivet on September 29th, 2008 08:01 pm (UTC)
it proves my belief that Ten was just NOT willing to say the words and that it had nothing to do with him being "bad cop" to Ten II's "good cop" in their last scene at Bad Wolf Bay

Wha...? I obviously have my issues with 10.5, and how that whole scene was done, but...I don't understand how it could be interpreted as a good cop/bad cop thing. :x To me, it was very obvious it was meant as you said:

Ten even then couldn't say the words because of who he was, how he lived, his rules, etc., but Ten II could say the words because he had that bit of human in him, enough to know that, yeah, it needed saying.

I don't understand how else one could interpret that scene. :confused:
Arabian: Rose_smilearabian on September 29th, 2008 11:10 pm (UTC)
Oh, there are many in the fandom who believe that Ten deliberately chose to not say the words at that point. You see, he knew that if he said them that Rose wouldn't stay with Ten II. Therefore, he chose not to say them so that only Ten II would say them and thus Rose would stay with Ten II. In other words, the "choice" that Rusty fought mightily to put in Rose's hands to some degree is taken away by those who see the scene as Ten choosing to NOT say the words deliberately.

For me, I always believed (as I wrote in my initial write-up) that he just COULD NOT say the words because of all he feels as an all-mighty Time Lord and the responsibilities and guilt. This cut scene confirmed what I (and obviously you) always thought.

Edited at 2008-09-29 11:12 pm (UTC)
madeellymadeelly on October 2nd, 2008 10:36 pm (UTC)
I agree with you. I like reading it, but it would have been reacted badly to.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on October 2nd, 2008 11:27 pm (UTC)
Yuppers. Absolutely.