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21 September 2008 @ 01:22 pm
Finished Torchwood, final thoughts  
Thoughts -- not intending to be long, but probably will wind up so -- on the first two series, overall impressions on the show, the characters, the couples, etc.



I loved the first five, six episodes and then it kinda went downhill a bit, picked up with the premiere of series two, and then had a few great episodes, the rest okay to good. And it was frustrating at times watching because there's a GREAT show struggling to get out, but it's hampered by sloppiness. It's very obvious that while Russell T Davies created this show, he didn't really have much to do with it, or if he did, most of his attention was on Doctor Who. Arcs didn't build, and weren't set up properly. Characters had motivations that came out of nowhere and then disappeared. Relationships developed out of nowhere or weren't explored properly. And, unfortunately, of the six main recurring actors, only two would I consider great actors, two others good, and the other two, eh to bad at certain points. Also, the fantastic episode to episode casting that Who normally does is not carried over to this show, so it must be done by different agents.

I will definitely continue to watch it; I DO like the show and the characters a lot, I'm just frustrated because the early episodes were so very good and then it all rather just fell apart a bit here and there for me.

Characters - Gwen is by far the best written character, in my opinion. I get her motivation, good or bad, pretty much all the time. And this is, no doubt, helped by the fact that Eve Myles is AMAZING!! The scene where Rhys died?! She really blew me away, she's just amazing. What I wouldn't give to have seen her as a companion on Who. I think, honestly, sometimes that she's too good for Torchwood. Myles is, obviously, one of the actors I do think is great in the cast.

Owen has the next best characterization (although, Katie and that relationship came a tad out of nowhere for me). He remained consistent even when he fell for Diane, and during the simmering of what wasn't meant to be with Tosh. Burn Gorman is a good actor, but there are moments, both small and big, where he's clearly "acting" and I'm just not as into him as I should be.

Tosh should really be lower on the characterization scale (the second to last, actually), but Naoko Mori is so damn good (yuppers, she's the other great actor) and so very, very likable that she makes Tosh more real than the script ever does. I mean, her two (only two!!!) episodes where she was the main focus ("Greeks Bearing Gifts" and "To the Last Man") some what had her out of character romantically-speaking with all of the other episodes. In GBG, she's suddenly a lesbian/bi-sexual and then it's never referred to again. Yes, it does set up her feelings more strongly for Owen (she'd mentioned their mistletoe kiss in the previous episode), but other than, pretty much nothing from that episode is carried over. And in "To the Last Man" -- a great episode on its own -- it's as if she's shed those feelings for Owen except when they share a scene. It's frustrating. And in some episodes, she's a timid little mouse, in others, stronger and jokier, and there's no reason to explain either personality seen. Still, Mori is so awesome that she made Tosh so awesome and I've decided that in my alternate universe where Russell T. Davies does a Who spin-off with Ten II, Rose, and alt!universe Donna, they also have alt!universe Toshiko Sato and the four of them save the earth (especially the U.K., of course) on a weekly basis. Uh huh.

Speaking of working with the Doctor, there's Martha!! You know, it's very odd. I saw Martha in the preview for the next episode and I squeed. I saw her intro and squeed and squeed. I saw Freema's name in the credits and squeed some more. And then as more scenes with Martha played out, I stopped squeeing and remembered why I just don't care about Martha. I think Freema is beautiful and lovely and utterly charming and likable. I just don't think she's a very charismatic performer or a great actress. She's not bad; she's just okay, and she's very, very bland. She's oh so bland. Sorry, Martha (and Martha fans). I want to love her so much, but, nope. Just, no. I like her, but I can not bring myself to love her.

Then we have Rhys, who is actually the best crafted character outside of Gwen, in my opinion, yet he's not even a main cast member. Kai Owen is the other good actor and he does a lot to make me like the Gwen/Rhys relationship, and I just like him, the big ole teddy bear, even when he's not perfect. Which makes him that much more real.

Unlike Ianto, who other than having a pretty cool name and yes, Captain John, being eye-candy, is a cipher. Seriously, I have no clue who this guy is. He's pretty much a blank slate until "Cyberwoman," and we see him as this deep, private, conflicted, heartfelt guy who completely loved this woman wholly and fully to the point where he's betraying all ethics we've been shown he has. And then a couple of episodes later, it's implied that he's shagging Jack. Came out of nowhere, and there was never anything in any of the following episodes that showed me in any way shape or form where the hell that came from. As for Gareth David-Lloyd, he's a cutie, but not a very good actor. But he IS eye-candy!!!

Finally we get to Jack. Jack is actually not very well-defined at all, in my opinion. He's so different, much less flirty, devil-may-care, etc. here than he ever was on Who -- even in the episodes he appeared in after Torchwood began ("Utopia/TSotD/TLofTL" and "TSE/JE"). I like him better, but I still have no clue who he really is. As for Barrowman, I thought he was an okay actor on Who. He's worse here. He's just not very good. There are great lines that he reduces to merely good with his delivery, and the dramatic stuff sounds so very, very acted. He's not bad. The light-hearted stuff is well-done, it's just that overall, I don't think he's all that good. And no matter how many times they tell me how charming and charismatic he is, it doesn't make it so. At least, not for me. I know, I know, I remain -- and likely forever shall -- in the minority.

Couples - I'm a couple-girl, so I'm always on the look-out for good chemistry. I'm open to male/male, female/female, older/younger, etc. I'm cool. I tend to go more for traditional male/female, but that's simply because I also go for canon and what I get on my screen and there's a lot more traditional male/female coupling on the airwaves. The main thing I look for in couples is chemistry. Chemistry, chemistry, good characterization (and keeping things in character) and chemistry.

The three couples who have the most chemistry are Gwen/Jack -- BY FAR!!, Gwen/Owen and Tosh/Owen. Whenever they have those moments with Jack and Gwen, the screen practically sizzles, my tummy gets those funny little jumps and I'm momentarily breathless. For example, that dance when time seemed to freeze, the music was silenced, etc. when they danced at the wedding was fabulous! They have excellent chemistry. And, it sure seems like they are building to something, but who knows? Because it sure looked like they were building to something with Tosh/Owen and that completely fizzled and went no where. Yes, Gwen loves Rhys. I don't even doubt that, but I actually am leaning more towards that while she loves him, she isn't in love with him, but she IS in love with Jack, but she loves Rhys SO much and feels so safe and secure with him that she's not even going there with Jack AT ALL and completely shuts any thought of going there when it pops up for even a second. And I'm cool with that ... for now, as long as they actually DO go somewhere with it. Because if they don't do anything with all of this build-up it means that all of it was just meaningless filler. So go somewhere, show. Go somewhere with it. Sometime, eventually; don't let it just become nothing as they did with Tosh/Owen.

Mori and Burman don't have as much chemistry as Barrowman and Myles, but they do have chemistry and I looked forward to all of the little moments that seemed to be building up to this tragic love story where they finally get there. Owen finally opens up to her, realizes that she's the one for him, they have an episode of happiness and then BOOM! they both die (as I knew they both did). But no, Owen dies and then undies. And then he goes kinda crazy, and then grabs Tosh for one hot kiss and then other than a few moments that again seemed to be building, nada! They had the story, the build-up, the chemistry and then it just FIZZLED! And I had to deal with Tosh/alien chick (with whom she DIDN'T share chemistry), Owen/Diane (with whom he REALLY didn't share chemistry) and Tosh/Tommy (okay, they had chemistry and were pretty sweet and heartbreaking), but got no pay-off for Owen and Tosh. BUMMER!!!

At least, we got a few moments with Gwen/Owen, the third couple who have chemistry, in my opinion, but they were just fuck buddies and it really didn't mean a damn thing, so I didn't expect or really desire more with them. Sigh.

Which leaves us with the couples paired who don't work for me. I already mentioned that I like Gwen/Rhys, but they really don't have that much chemistry for me. They're sweet, I believe she loves him, but they don't create any amount of sizzle or sparkage for me. I mentioned the guest-stints above that worked (and didn't), which leaves us with Jack and John.

Oh, James Marsters. (Excuse the tangent about the awesome that is James Marsters.) He showed up and in about thirty seconds I was damning Marni Noxin all over again for ruining Buffy for me and making it impossible to watch. James Marsters is one of those very few actors who excels in two areas that make him so undeniably watchable it's nearly unbelievable: His charisma -- off the charts! -- and his line delivery -- he makes every line better than it is, no matter how lousy or how great the line is on its own. (Off-hand, I can think of only six other actors who have that same level of skill in that area: Ralph Fiennes, Gary Oldman, William Fichtner, Jason Dohring and Nicolas Cage.) And he and Barrowman had/have chemistry. That first kiss, then fight was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! And just everything about every moment with Marsters was AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! Because James Marsters is AWESOME!!!!!!!!!! And I totally bought he and Jack as a couple.

I also liked Jack and the real Jack Harkness. The actor wasn't that great, but he and Barrowman had a nice chemistry and I enjoyed their tension-filled moments and that dance (although so highly unbelievable that the real Harkness wouldn't have basically been rejected then and there by everyone else in that room) was beautiful. The near-kiss, the emo that our Jack was feeling, all very well done and the two actors had some nice, nice chemistry.

So, one couple left, and what I thought was the big one: Jack and Ianto. And as I watched, I wondered when does the good stuff with them happen. And I kept waiting, and waiting ... Where's the good stuff? What's the big deal? Where is this great relationship? They have barely any screen time, we barely know how they came about, we barely see anything that actually acknowledges anything in their feelings for each other that is anything other than concern for a team member and the two being fuck buddies.

Watching this show, I came away believing 100% that Jack IS in love with Gwen, had very strong feelings for John, but Ianto? He cares about him, as he does the rest of his team, and enjoys the sex, but that's it. And I still believe that Ianto's heart is held by Lisa; he doesn't appear to love Jack anymore than Tosh or Owen did, and not nearly as much as Gwen. Of course, it would probably help me feel anything for their "relationship" -- as it were -- if Barrowman and David-Lloyd had even a lick of chemistry, in my opinion. Which they don't. At all. Jack and Tosh dancing in "Captain Jack Harkness" had more chemistry (before she ruined it by complaining about her laptop) than Jack and Ianto have ever shared. Eh. Oh well. So unless they actually ever do anything Jack and Gwen, I likely won't have a couple on this show. (Well, okay, if anything were to happen with Martha and Jack -- if she were to come back -- maybe then, because I did like their scenes and they had chemistry and I liked their kiss. So they're a possibility too.) Moving on ...

Finally, the character deaths. DAMNIT! Why did Tosh have to die? Owen was dead already and while I like him, I really didn't care either way as I would if Gwen or Tosh were to die because I LOOOOOOVVVVVVVEEEEEEEEE Gwen and Tosh, and they frickin' killed off Tosh. DAMNIT!!! WHYYYY!?!?!?!?!? Kill off Owen, kill of Ianto, hell, kill of Jack ... but leave Tosh alone. Fuckers.

Random thoughts ...

- I totally cried when Tosh died, and left her little video. So very Tosh.

- Man, the Gray arc could have been stronger if they had threaded it better throughout the series, and oh, you know, if they had cast someone as Gray who could actually ACT!!! because that guy was baaaaaaaaaaaaad. Lordy, I hope they don't pull Gray out of freeze unless they recast.

- There were so many points where I would think, man, Jack call the Doctor. This so could have been handled in about five minutes by the Doctor, LOL!

- I feel deprived of any conversation about the Doctor between Jack and Gwen since she mentioned knowing about him (her reference to him in "Journey's End."). Hmmpph!

- ETA: I also love Andy, Gwen's former partner. He should be brought on board the Torchwood team!! I love him!

- My favorite episodes, the best ones to me were:

- Everything Changes
- Day One
- Small Worlds
- Countrycide
- Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang
- Sleeper
- A Day in the Death

So, Torchwood. I like it, but it needs a stronger guiding hand that can bring out the greatness that is just there out of sight. Still, I'll continue watching it, it just won't be episode TV like Who was.
 
 
 
Velvet Rain Drops: Jackadriana_is on September 21st, 2008 06:45 pm (UTC)
Great write up! I'd like to delve further into some of these points but, right now, I can't. I do agree with almost all of your points. I think the show has a lot of promise and I am looking forward to the new season to see if it improves a bit. I have to admit that this show does not engage me in the same manner that DW does, I love Jack and I want to give him a chance but, IMO, Jack is best when he's with DW. I would love to have them bring JB into DW to become a companion, but that's wishful thinking on my part.
Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on September 21st, 2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
Great write up!

Thank you!

I'd like to delve further into some of these points but, right now, I can't.

I'll be interested to read your delving when you have time.

I do agree with almost all of your points. I think the show has a lot of promise and I am looking forward to the new season to see if it improves a bit.

Do we know if RTD is going to be more heavily involved it now that he's (almost) done with Who?

I have to admit that this show does not engage me in the same manner that DW does

Heh!, I was re-reading, editing this and added: Still, I'll continue watching it, it just won't be episode TV like Who was. and that's pretty much what you wrote above. Yeah, we do agree on this one. LOL!

I love Jack and I want to give him a chance but, IMO, Jack is best when he's with DW. I would love to have them bring JB into DW to become a companion, but that's wishful thinking on my part.

I don't love Jack, and likely never will, but I think I would enjoy him as the Doctor's companion with Rose no longer there. And yeah, totally wishful thinking, I'm sure Moffat wouldn't want the Doctor to have any competition for all those babes-of-the-week he, no doubt, intends to throw the Doctor's way. {{Rolls eyes}}
alexiscartwheel: tw - ianto hello?alexiscartwheel on September 21st, 2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
I pretty much agree with your overall assessment that Torchwood is good but held back from being really great by being so uneven. I tend to divide episodes into three categories: 1) legitimately cool, 2) cracktastic, and therefore awesome, and 3) WTF? For the most part, I watch for the crack rather than consistently great plots or characterization, and that way it's less likely to disappoint.

I'm not a big Owen fangirl either, but I was sad that he was killed off just as I was beginning to understand him and really like his character. I think he had the best overall character development in Season 2, but of course once he came back to life, it was inevitable that he would eventually have to die for real.

I actually really love Gwen/Rhys, although I didn't always. Rhys and Mickey are kind of the same for me; I didn't care for either in Season 1, but in Season 2 they convinced me of their awesome. I think "Meat" was the episode that really made me love Rhys, and it was also the episode that made me like Rhys/Gwen. In Season 1 I was really bothered that Gwen retconned Rhys rather than actually talking about their relationship problems--not a good sign!--so I was really glad to see her take a stand. I think by being honest to him, she showed how important he is to her, and I think that also brought them closer. And "Something Borrowed" is just about the crackiest thing ever and I love it... especially Rhys trying to protect Gwen with a chain saw.

Jack/Ianto is pretty meh for me. It's canon and I'm fine with it, but I just don't really care about it. Ianto was another sleeper awesome character for me though. He really brings the snark in Season 2.

The whole Gray arc really was rubbish. They could have maybe pulled it off it the acting on both sides had been more convincing, but even then I'm not so sure. But I kind of forgive the finale, since it did have the Rhys/PC Andy comedy duo and kickass Gwen.

Have you listened to the recent Torchwood audio play yet?
Arabian: Gwen Somberarabian on September 21st, 2008 06:59 pm (UTC)
I pretty much agree with your overall assessment that Torchwood is good but held back from being really great by being so uneven.

Nice to know I'm not alone in my thoughts on the show.

I tend to divide episodes into three categories: 1) legitimately cool, 2) cracktastic, and therefore awesome, and 3) WTF? For the most part, I watch for the crack rather than consistently great plots or characterization, and that way it's less likely to disappoint.

See, it's ALWAYS about character, character, character for me. I can let ANYTHING else slide if I get good character and good, consistent characterization.

I actually really love Gwen/Rhys, although I didn't always. Rhys and Mickey are kind of the same for me; I didn't care for either in Season 1, but in Season 2 they convinced me of their awesome.

I can see that. And, honestly, if it were not for the Myles/Barrowman chemistry, I'd probably be higher on Gwen/Rhys. The fact that I still like them so much is a testament to the sweet chemistry that Myles and Owens do have. I'm just a sizzling chemistry fan over sweet chemisry (rather why I prefer the Eccleston/Piper chemistry to the Tennant/Piper chemistry as I see the former as sizzling, and the latter as sweet -- not that I still don't love and adore both Nine/Rose and Ten/Rose).

I think "Meat" was the episode that really made me love Rhys, and it was also the episode that made me like Rhys/Gwen.

"Meat" made me love Rhys, totally. And that was the one that really pushed me into liking Rhys/Gwen even if I don't ship them, so I totally see that.

In Season 1 I was really bothered that Gwen retconned Rhys rather than actually talking about their relationship problems--not a good sign!--so I was really glad to see her take a stand. I think by being honest to him, she showed how important he is to her, and I think that also brought them closer. And "Something Borrowed" is just about the crackiest thing ever and I love it... especially Rhys trying to protect Gwen with a chain saw.

Yup, yup, yup all around.

Jack/Ianto is pretty meh for me. It's canon and I'm fine with it, but I just don't really care about it. Ianto was another sleeper awesome character for me though. He really brings the snark in Season 2.

See, there wasn't enough snark from him for me. And Jack/Ianto, just so boring, but Gareth David-Lloyd does bring the pretty.

The whole Gray arc really was rubbish. They could have maybe pulled it off it the acting on both sides had been more convincing, but even then I'm not so sure. But I kind of forgive the finale, since it did have the Rhys/PC Andy comedy duo and kickass Gwen.

Yes, yes, yes ... oh, I must edit to add that I LOVE Andy. He's awesome!!!

Have you listened to the recent Torchwood audio play yet?

Nah, I tend to go only for what's on air rather than extra stuff unless I'm hopelessly addicted (see Who). And I'm really not into audio stuff like that. Could I just get a synopsis?
alexiscartwheel: tw - ianto hello?alexiscartwheel on September 24th, 2008 07:43 pm (UTC)
Yes, yes, yes ... oh, I must edit to add that I LOVE Andy. He's awesome!!!

A while back I read a suggestion that they should make a Who spinoff sitcom with Rhys, PC Andy, and Mickey. I would watch that show!

And "Lost Souls" in a nutshell: Martha calls in Torchwood to help her investigate alien hijinks at CERN. Martha plays grief counselor, Ianto is the ambassador from Wales and has bicycle bell, Gwen saves his life, and Jack reverses the polarity. It wasn't mindblowing, but it was fun.
But you can call me Bowie: tw: ianto considers orgyisiscaughey on September 21st, 2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
I think John Barrowman, to be perfectly honest, is a terrible dramatic actor. I'm quite charmed by him when he's being lighthearted, funny, or flirtatious, but he just can't do the serious stuff (and when he does, I find it painful to watch).

I agree completely that Torchwood will have these flashes of brilliance, but just never carry through. Character traits and motivations were not well monitored, and the show just goes all over the place. They could really have used a character bible, and someone nitpicking continuity.

Have you seen the Dead Ringers spoof of Torchwood? It's hysterical.
Arabian: Torchwoodarabian on September 21st, 2008 07:01 pm (UTC)
I think John Barrowman, to be perfectly honest, is a terrible dramatic actor. I'm quite charmed by him when he's being lighthearted, funny, or flirtatious, but he just can't do the serious stuff (and when he does, I find it painful to watch).

What she said.

I agree completely that Torchwood will have these flashes of brilliance, but just never carry through. Character traits and motivations were not well monitored, and the show just goes all over the place. They could really have used a character bible, and someone nitpicking continuity.

Erm, what she said.

Have you seen the Dead Ringers spoof of Torchwood? It's hysterical.

Nope, I don't even know what Dead Ringers is. Unknowledgeable American here.

(Heh to your icon.)
But you can call me Bowie: dr who 9/rose/jackisiscaughey on September 21st, 2008 07:23 pm (UTC)
Dead Ringers is a British sketch comedy sort of like SNL.

Here's a link to a post I embedded their Torchwood spoof in. It's really quite spot-on.

Edited at 2008-09-21 07:25 pm (UTC)
Opal: TW: Team Torchwoodshinyopals on September 21st, 2008 08:07 pm (UTC)
Oh, Torchwood. I love it and I have no idea why! XD

Agreeing with a fair amount of this assessment objectively, but TW still makes me bounce around like a loony and sob like a baby for various unfathomable reasons. It'll never be Doctor Who, but for some reason s2 really left me adoring it more than I should.

Owen ended up being my favourite, both in terms of character arc and acting, which Gwen and Tosh in second place by a very narrow margin. I've never really thought about it before, but I think you've pinned down why Tosh didn't quite jump up to first place - there were just so many inconsistencies.

I liked Torchwood!Martha, even if I don't think FA is the most fantastic actress. I found she worked quite well as part of a team. But she did just feel like she was brought in as a substitute Doctor while Owen had his dying plot arc, as opposed to being brought in because she's Martha. Still, I'd quite liked to have seen her on TW full time.

On Jack/Ianto (and the two actors): what you said. I must admit I simply do not get the huge enthusiasm for this ship beyond it being quite pretty. Both JB and GDL do light-hearted stuff much better, IMO, and several times I cracked up at the wrong moment because of how one of them said a line or did something.

But still, overall I love the show and am craving more! XD But I'm not quite sure if it'll have the same appeal now Owen and Tosh are gone, or if I'll end up enjoying but not really caring.
Arabian: Torchwoodarabian on September 21st, 2008 11:29 pm (UTC)
Oh, Torchwood. I love it and I have no idea why! XD

Hey, we all have our movies/shows like that. Embrace it with love and joy!

Owen ended up being my favourite, both in terms of character arc and acting, which Gwen and Tosh in second place by a very narrow margin.

I can see why. I couldn't see that with any other character but Owen, but I can see it with him, even if I don't concur.

I've never really thought about it before, but I think you've pinned down why Tosh didn't quite jump up to first place - there were just so many inconsistencies.

Right, as much as I love Gwen and think that Eve Myles is AMAZING!, I think that Naoki Mori is SO damn likable that had Tosh been written better, she'd be first. (But just by a small margin!)

I liked Torchwood!Martha, even if I don't think FA is the most fantastic actress. I found she worked quite well as part of a team. But she did just feel like she was brought in as a substitute Doctor while Owen had his dying plot arc, as opposed to being brought in because she's Martha. Still, I'd quite liked to have seen her on TW full time.

This.

On Jack/Ianto (and the two actors): what you said. I must admit I simply do not get the huge enthusiasm for this ship beyond it being quite pretty.

I am quite shocked in retrospect at the love/squee for this pairing when it basically doesn't really exist. They are just fuck buddies. That's it, and they have barely any screentime and pretty much NONE devoted to them as an actual couple beyond the fuck-buddy-ness and even that is EXTREMELY limited.

Both JB and GDL do light-hearted stuff much better, IMO, and several times I cracked up at the wrong moment because of how one of them said a line or did something.

Hee, this too.

But still, overall I love the show and am craving more! XD But I'm not quite sure if it'll have the same appeal now Owen and Tosh are gone, or if I'll end up enjoying but not really caring.

I'm glad I adore Gwen so much, or I'm not sure I'd continue to watch it without Tosh. But Gwen's my girl, so I'm there. (I so need to make a Gwen/Rose icon. No, you know what? Billie Tyler, Eve Myles, Catherine Tate and Naoki Mori need to do a kick-ass photo shoot together from which many icons can be made.)
Frances: TW - Gwen - lookgoldy_dollar on September 21st, 2008 11:18 pm (UTC)
Wow. I don't think I've ever nodded my head and said "yes, yes, THAT" so much when reading a post. Usually I'm quite an opinionated person. XD

But I agree - with basically everything.

I love Gwen, I watch mostly for Gwen, and though I bawled when Tosh died, I'm content that it at least wasn't Gwen. She's written so consistently that I can really sympathize and feel her character arc in a way I can't for any of the others.

I don't actively ship Jack/Gwen, but it's the only pairing I'm interested in, and I absolutely agree about their chemistry. I think Barrowman does some of his best dramatic work when playing off Eve Myles. And while I like Rhys okay, there's something fundamentally not right about the two of them. He doesn't seem to get her, and she doesn't seem to love him in quite the same way he loves her.

Jack/Ianto is really the *weirdest* pairing inserted into a TV show. Ever. Where did it come from? And why...? And... do I even care? Okay, Ianto is pretty, but I'm still scarred from that time he cried last season. It was like when Freema Agyeman cried in The Doctor's Daughter. DO NOT WANT THAT AGAIN. (Though I do love Martha even if I don't think FA is the strongest actor in the Whoverse. Basically, I think I just want to be Martha, which may or may not say something about me. :D)

Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who is meh on Jack. I like him okay in Doctor Who - don't love him - but I mostly find him unsympathetic in Torchwood. Barrowman makes the angst-ridden thing seem almost painful. I just want to look away! And he doesn't angst pretty like Tennant does, which is important to me since I'm shallow like that. XD

I feel deprived of any conversation about the Doctor between Jack and Gwen since she mentioned knowing about him (her reference to him in "Journey's End."). Hmmpph!

THIS. This bugs me after a season of Jack being all super-myserious about it. Apparently there was no point to that at all and Jack was just getting his kicks where he could. *facepalms*
Arabian: Gwen Somberarabian on September 21st, 2008 11:36 pm (UTC)
Wow. I don't think I've ever nodded my head and said "yes, yes, THAT" so much when reading a post. Usually I'm quite an opinionated person. XD

Oh, thank you!! I'm quite opinionated myself, so I understand how rare that is. I don't know if you're into going back and reading older posts, but I'd be very interested to read your take on my Who thoughts, I have, erm, QUITE, a lot. LOL!

I love Gwen, I watch mostly for Gwen, and though I bawled when Tosh died, I'm content that it at least wasn't Gwen. She's written so consistently that I can really sympathize and feel her character arc in a way I can't for any of the others.

Yeah, this.

I don't actively ship Jack/Gwen, but it's the only pairing I'm interested in, and I absolutely agree about their chemistry.

Yes. This too. I don't actively ship them, but I *could.* And that is more than I can say for anyone else on the show.

I think Barrowman does some of his best dramatic work when playing off Eve Myles.

*Snerk* which isn't saying much. Sorry, sorry. But yeah, he's best opposite her. She really brings out his best.

And while I like Rhys okay, there's something fundamentally not right about the two of them. He doesn't seem to get her, and she doesn't seem to love him in quite the same way he loves her.

YES!! Okay, yeah I'm doing the 'nodding my head and going "yes, yes, THAT" now. I adore Gwen, but she doesn't really deserve Rhys. You know who would have made an adorable couple? Rhys and Tosh. That just popped into my head.

Jack/Ianto is really the *weirdest* pairing inserted into a TV show. Ever. Where did it come from? And why...? And... do I even care?

GOD, YES!!!!!! There is NO substance, nothing at all to them. NADA!

Okay, Ianto is pretty, but I'm still scarred from that time he cried last season.

Hee!

It was like when Freema Agyeman cried in The Doctor's Daughter. DO NOT WANT THAT AGAIN. (Though I do love Martha even if I don't think FA is the strongest actor in the Whoverse. Basically, I think I just want to be Martha, which may or may not say something about me. :D)

I want to love Martha so much, and she can be uber-cool, I just can't because Freema just isn't good enough. But I really want to love her (and I do like her).

Sometimes I think I'm the only person in the world who is meh on Jack. I like him okay in Doctor Who - don't love him - but I mostly find him unsympathetic in Torchwood.

Heh, you should check out my unpopular Who opinions post. I was shocked at the number of people who agreed with my meh-ness on Jack/Barrowman.

Barrowman makes the angst-ridden thing seem almost painful. I just want to look away! And he doesn't angst pretty like Tennant does, which is important to me since I'm shallow like that. XD

Yeah, Tennant angst very prettily, and you know what, Christopher Eccleston, despite not being as technically pretty as Barrowman, angsts a helluva lot prettier too. Of course, I'm just partial to Eccleston. I heart him.

"I feel deprived of any conversation about the Doctor between Jack and Gwen since she mentioned knowing about him (her reference to him in "Journey's End."). Hmmpph!"

THIS. This bugs me after a season of Jack being all super-myserious about it. Apparently there was no point to that at all and Jack was just getting his kicks where he could. *facepalms*


Yeah!! What the hell!?!??!
Frances: DW - Ten/Rose - beachgoldy_dollar on September 22nd, 2008 12:07 am (UTC)
I don't know if you're into going back and reading older posts, but I'd be very interested to read your take on my Who thoughts, I have, erm, QUITE, a lot. LOL!

Haha. I'm pretty sure I spent some time skimming your Who posts, but I can be a lazy commenter (sometimes it's nice just to read analysis without doing my own, you know? :D). I'm not sure we match up quite as nicely in Who, but Who is tricker that way. For one, I spend way, way more time thinking about Who than Torchwood. *G*

*Snerk* which isn't saying much. Sorry, sorry. But yeah, he's best opposite her. She really brings out his best.

Bwah! I was going to say something like that, but then I thought it'd be mean. XD

YES!! Okay, yeah I'm doing the 'nodding my head and going "yes, yes, THAT" now. I adore Gwen, but she doesn't really deserve Rhys.

I don't think they deserve each other, really. Rhys seems to want something from Gwen she can't give him, and he clings to her in a way that vaguely reminds me of Mickey/Rose. Not that I think Jack would be a smarter romantic choice for Gwen necessarily, but at least it'd be super interesting. And hot. :D

Heh, you should check out my unpopular Who opinions post. I was shocked at the number of people who agreed with my meh-ness on Jack/Barrowman.

I'M NOT ALONE! :D Though, I will say that I do like what Jack brings in terms of the Doctor and Rose's characterization. Utopia is one of my favourites for that reason. (Not that it was addressed in Journey's End. *HUFFS*) And I don't OT3 ship the three of them at ALL.

Yeah, Tennant angst very prettily, and you know what, Christopher Eccleston, despite not being as technically pretty as Barrowman, angsts a helluva lot prettier too. Of course, I'm just partial to Eccleston. I heart him.

You? Like Eccleston? I'm just shocked! XD

Though I think there can be such a thing as too much pretty angsting. Like... Tennant also has a lovely smile. Which we might never see again.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on September 22nd, 2008 12:35 am (UTC)
Haha. I'm pretty sure I spent some time skimming your Who posts, but I can be a lazy commenter (sometimes it's nice just to read analysis without doing my own, you know? :D). I'm not sure we match up quite as nicely in Who, but Who is tricker that way. For one, I spend way, way more time thinking about Who than Torchwood. *G*

Oh, I already know from reading some of your posts and responses to other people that we don't agree 100%, but we do agree on Doctor/Rose and their awesomeness and we agree on Moffat's take on the Doctor and RTD's awesome crack. Those are the most important things to agree upon, imo.

"*Snerk* which isn't saying much. Sorry, sorry. But yeah, he's best opposite her. She really brings out his best."

Bwah! I was going to say something like that, but then I thought it'd be mean. XD


Hey! Are you calling me mean?! LOL!

I don't think they deserve each other, really. Rhys seems to want something from Gwen she can't give him, and he clings to her in a way that vaguely reminds me of Mickey/Rose.

You're right. But she loves him and all he represents so much and he adores her so much, it's like they can't quit themselves of each other. They are very passionate about each other in a way that comes across as, erm, not passionate. It's weird.

Not that I think Jack would be a smarter romantic choice for Gwen necessarily, but at least it'd be super interesting. And hot. :D

Nods.

I'M NOT ALONE! :D Though, I will say that I do like what Jack brings in terms of the Doctor and Rose's characterization. Utopia is one of my favourites for that reason. (Not that it was addressed in Journey's End. *HUFFS*) And I don't OT3 ship the three of them at ALL.

Nods again.

You? Like Eccleston? I'm just shocked! XD

I know! It isn't obvious at all!

Though I think there can be such a thing as too much pretty angsting. Like... Tennant also has a lovely smile. Which we might never see again.

Aww, thinking of the "Hello" grin in "New Earth." Lovely smile, best seen and most often at Rose. Sigh. ::Smooshes them with love::