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23 August 2008 @ 09:55 am
Yup, they were doing it ...  
So, I've been convinced for a while now that the Doctor and Rose were definitely having sex in S2. (I even wrote a post up that referenced a few of my points behind the cut, but I was asking other opinions, I wasn't convinced myself. Now I am.) I know, I know ... it's Doctor Who, that doesn't happen on Who, or I know, I know ... the way they kissed in "Journey's End" proved that it hadn't happened before. Well, as for the latter, there's a perfectly reasonable explanation to that kiss that still makes the theory that they were going at it like bunnies work. As for it being Who, that's why it's kinda there in between the lines, because it's technically a "kid's show" and there are purists who don't want to go there. But there are definitely signs that point to that kind of relationship between them.

I think their relationship changed and became physically intimate after (big shock here!) "The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit." What they went through in that episode, before and after the separation, brought them to a new level, I think. First the "stuck with you" conversation. Yes, they were a little awkward and not quite saying what they meant, but it was obvious what was at the heart of their dialogue, and both were clearly thinking in the same direction. For Rose, it's not that big a leap that she could deal with them being stuck in one place, but the fact that the Doctor wasn't freaking out, but came across as in almost the same place as she? That was a huge sign, that as much as he loves the TARDIS and his life as a Time Traveler, being with Rose is enough that he's willing to even contemplate it.

After the separation, we had the first time the Doctor said "I love you," without saying it and then claimed belief in her over any and everything in the entire universe. For Rose, we had her insistence in not leaving, even if he was gone. She didn't care; she wanted to be wherever he was, even if it was just the memory of the last place he'd been. Emotionally, they both took giant leaps here, so a sexual relationship coming off the heels of that two-parter makes perfect sense. And after that episode, these are the little moments we got that led me to believe that, yes, they DID take that step.

- In "Fear Her," a small (if disgusting) thing, true, but the fact that (a) the Doctor casually, calmly holds out his hand, casually and calmly *expecting* Rose to spit chewed up gum into his hand, and (b) that Rose casually and calmly spits said chewed up gum into his hand. I mean, come on? Yes, they are very close. They are, but I couldn't imagine Donna doing that unless she really, really, really, REALLY had to ... and in this case, Rose didn't even have to one "really" have to do it. Yet, it was just a casual intimate moment between them that bespoke of her saliva being on his body not an uncommon occurrence.

- Cheating a bit, I know as it was a deleted scene, but in "Army of Ghosts," as the Doctor and Rose head towards Powell Estate (I assume), they simply hold hands. No rush, no emergency, no danger, no running from or towards danger. They're just two people in love walking along ... holding hands. I know that doesn't say "THEY ARE HAVING SEX!!!OMG!!!!," but tied in with everything else and the fact that it's such a casual, comfortable thing adds to the whole theory.

- One of the biggies ... "Doomsday." Anyone reading this knows exactly where I'm going here.
    Doctor: You've still got Mr. Mickey, then?
    Rose: There's five of us now. Mum, dad, Mickey ... and the baby.
    Doctor: (Slightly stunned) You're not ...?
    Rose: No. (Laughing) It's mum.
I mean, come on ... It was totally leading there. The Doctor's reaction, his expression, tone of voice to "you're not ..." and Rose's long look back at him with the slight smile before the laughing "no." I'm certainly not one for the whole idea of a bunch of Timetots running around, and pretty much avoid babyfic!, but the idea that the Doctor would think ...

Of course, there's another interpretation as the comment came on the heels of "Well, you've still got Mr. Mickey then," but I can't imagine that a few weeks after he and Rose are cruelly separated that he would (a) automatically assume that she got it on with Mickey (or any other guy), (b) not be more than stunned, but rather peeved, annoyed, jealous, etc. This *IS* the Doctor about ROSE!.

So, no, I don't buy that he thought it was Mickey's. That would have garnered a different reaction from the Doctor, indeed. Instead, we got one of slightly being stunned and vaguely wistful response to Rose then giving him that look, before laughing. The dialogue and reactions from both the Doctor and Rose are too telling, in my opinion. And the fact that quite a few people did wonder if it was implying what they thought they possibly couldn't be implying ... which tells me it's quite likely that Rusty was cackling his evil laugh somewhere in glee knowing that people were thinking it. AND being the total Doctor/Rose OTP-shipper that he is, I can't help but think that he *did* intend for people to think that, knowing that they'd dismiss it because it's Who.

- Rose's top in the TARDIS console room in "The Runaway Bride." Yes, the point was that it was supposed to show Donna that there had been another female there giving rise to her kidnapping women fear, and keep the Dotor's angst alive and kicking. But ... her top? Why not a hoodie, or a brush, or some other female accoutrement that didn't scream, 'Hi! I undress in the TARDIS console room where the Doctor and I shag like bunnies!' Okay, okay, fine it doesn't scream that ... BUT, her top?!?! You don't leave your top casually slung about (other than in your bedroom) when you live with someone you don't have an intimate relationship with. So why would Rose's TOP be casually laying about the console room like that unless either she or the Doctor had pulled it off before shagging like bunnies?!?!?! See, just another small piece that fits.

- The choice of phrase the Doctor describes his relationship with Rose as to Martha in "Smith and Jones" when she asks him about who he travels with. It starts out described in a removed fashion as "guests" before rambling into a much more intimate comment about Rose specifically.
    Martha: Is there a crew, like a navigator and stuff? Where is everyone?
    Doctor: Just me.
    Martha: All on your own?
    Doctor: Well, sometimes I have guests. I mean, some friends traveling alongside me. I had ... it was recently ... a friend of mine. Rose, her name was. Rose ... and ... we were together.
So we go from "guests" to "friends traveling alongside me," to "a friend of mine," to specifically naming her "Rose." Before we finally get to "and ... we were together." Be honest ... if this were not Doctor Who, just a normal, non-sci-fi, non-cracky, non-"children's show" kind of program, or a book, or someone in real life and they described a relationship with someone as "we were together," the assumption that everyone and their dog would take from that phrase would be that they were together ... in the biblical sense. They were a couple, an item, shagging like bunnies.

- Which brings us to "Turn Left" ... we have Rose's reaction to Donna's: "Were you and him ...?" which while wasn't a ringing cry of 'hell yeah!,' neither was it a denial. At all. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that it actually leaned more in the direction of 'yes, we were' as opposed to 'no, it wasn't like that.' If they WEREN'T together (hah! I wasn't even thinking of the above paragraph, but merely trying to come up with another way of saying 'weren't shagging like bunnies,' and my brain automatically filled in "weren't together" -- see!?!?!?), why didn't Rose just do the slight head shake, laugh, look-down in slight wistful, 'no' sigh that would have easily, no ambiguity there, answer that question? You know why? BECAUSE THEY WERE! Uh huh.

It should be noted that of all of the episodes I referenced above to "prove" my theory, all but "Fear Her" was written by Russell T. Davies. Uh huh.

Finally, back to the kiss in "Journey's End," that kiss coming like it did didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been, well, you know, and thus the surprise and shock of her pulling him to her like that. Simply it implied that the Doctor had never said the words before -- which really wouldn't come as a surprise from Mr. Euphemism-boy ("Does it need saying?" *Oh, Doctor*). After all, they went right into each other's arms, kissing away like they'd had practice -- and it'd been a really long time since Cassandra, and it was, well, Cassandra! so I'm not counting it.

So, unless we are somehow proven elsewise through canon -- though, how that would ever come up now?? -- all of the above signs, along with their general air about each other, says to me that they were indeed "together," shagging like bunnies, pick your euphemism and nothing in canon disputes that belief if you're not inclined against it. Which I'm not.
 
 
 
(Anonymous) on August 23rd, 2008 04:20 pm (UTC)
Atheniandream@aol.com

You know, I'd be really inclined to think that they not, it's a family show, and they were like really great mates that happened to be in love, lol.

However. BIG one.

You happened to pick out two very big points that, at the time of watching I thought.. hmmm... little to clearly put. like Runaway Bride and Turn Left.

I also agree that the kiss didn't look particularly :snigger: 'alien' to either of them, but leads to believe that if they were involved, it were rather a complicated and sporadic thing that they hid with the 'happy bunny play play' syndrome

lol. nice read.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 23rd, 2008 04:24 pm (UTC)
My point is that it was so in between the lines because it is a family show, but taking the above things I mentioned and their overall air, it not only doesn't deny it, it adds credence to it ... IF you want to believe it. Nothing contradicts it, instead it poins TO it.
Diana: Home -- Rose and the Doctorbutterfly on August 23rd, 2008 04:42 pm (UTC)
*agrees very much*
Post-TIP/TSP is exactly where they start sleeping together in my personal canon, too. Their emotional intimacy gets even closer after that episode and... yeah... there's the baby pause of "You're not...?" that kinda seals it for me. His voice is so soft and wistful there.

*pets the Doctor, who so totally wants to have a little baby girl with Rose's smile*

I mean, even DWM thought that they'd at least been making out before "Doomsday" (they called her kissing Ten II in JE a way to compare and see that it was really the Doctor).
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Impossible Planetarabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:39 pm (UTC)
Re: *agrees very much*
Their emotional intimacy gets even closer after that episode and... yeah... there's the baby pause of "You're not...?" that kinda seals it for me. His voice is so soft and wistful there.

*pets the Doctor, who so totally wants to have a little baby girl with Rose's smile*


There's just a change. I mean, even in the little bits of "Love & Monsters" I just get this sentence that they are more a "family" than ever before.

I mean, even DWM thought that they'd at least been making out before "Doomsday"

Hee, I know, I LOVED that! Though, I don't know, how much insight does DWM have, or is just basically a fan magazine that has access to interview them or do you think they had info from those involved to say that definitively?
Re: *agrees very much* - firefaery2 on August 23rd, 2008 09:46 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Re: *agrees very much* - arabian on August 23rd, 2008 09:58 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Rolling to the Ocean: Rose/Tenlittle_aphid on August 23rd, 2008 04:46 pm (UTC)
...Huh. I totally think that RTD was sneaking it in there and loling, because that's what he does (the lovable bastard :P) though I tend to alternate whether I personally go with it or not. On the one hand, I absolutely adore the rare male/female friendships, and if I haven't rewatched any season 1 or 2 episodes in a while I tend to forget their sheer chemistry.

But on the other hand, when I DO get a dose of their relationship again, I go "oh yeah, that's why they're, totally made for each other." Screw my rational, but-he's-at-least-900-years-old-and-also-Master-OMG protesting, when I watch them, they = OTP. They're just too adorable together NOT to want them to be together in all possible ways.

So, yeah, gotta agree with you, at least at the moment. ;)
Arabian: David & Billie Dancingarabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:51 pm (UTC)
I totally think that RTD was sneaking it in there and loling, because that's what he does

Yup, that is EXACTLY why I so believe that this is the case. Because this is EXACTLY the kind of thing that Rusty does. Totally. And cackles evilly whilst doing so.
Ree: DW - 2x07 reetinkerbell on August 23rd, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
I think you're very much right.

And until we get the Doctor clearly stating that he and Rose did not in fact make with the togetherness in that sort of sense, I'm going to believe that they were.

Arabian: David & Billie Dancingarabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:53 pm (UTC)
And until we get the Doctor clearly stating that he and Rose did not in fact make with the togetherness in that sort of sense, I'm going to believe that they were.

Yup, and the absolute beauty of that is that there is absolute no reason we should ever get that kind of comment because with Moffat in charge, I can't imagine the name Rose or anything having to do with her will EVER come up again.

So Doctor/Rose = shagging like bunnies? Totally not just personal canon, but show canon unless proven otherwise and the likelihood of that? Not bloody likely.

(I so need to make that shoe icon, but I haven't figured out how to make one the way I like it yet. It's on the list of 'things-to-do.')
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tardismatetardismate on August 23rd, 2008 04:48 pm (UTC)
Oh absolutely. Couldn't have put it better myself. They SO were, and for all the indications you have pointed out.
And as for the Rusty thing, I truly believe they were at it like rabbits in his mind, he just couldn't commit that to paper, much as he would have liked to, so he did the best he could within the constraints of a children's show, and gave us little hints so the adults watching would get it.

'So we go from "guests" to "friends traveling alongside me," to "a friend of mine," to specifically naming her "Rose." Before we finally get to "and ... we were together." ' - this, for me, is the decider. No-one, and I mean no-one, says that unless there is some sort of physical relationship involved. Add that to the Doomsday comment, and there is the proof. They were indeed shagging...and God knows, who would blame them.
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:56 pm (UTC)
Exactly! The indications were just so there from Rusty for adults who ship to see clear as day without committing it to paper for the kiddies and fanboys and fangirls who would be aghast at the reality of it being said flat-out.

"So we go from "guests" to "friends traveling alongside me," to "a friend of mine," to specifically naming her "Rose." Before we finally get to "and ... we were together."

this, for me, is the decider. No-one, and I mean no-one, says that unless there is some sort of physical relationship involved.


Yup, I'd been toying with the idea for a while, but when reading transcripts for "Smith & Jones" and I read that line, I was like "whaa ..!??! Stop the presses." The Doctor just said they "were together." You don't say THAT unless you are TOGETHER. And all of the other stuff alongside that? Yeah, totally doing it.

Add that to the Doomsday comment, and there is the proof.

Yup, totally.
The wisdom of kenshinno1hk's mindkenshinno1hk on August 23rd, 2008 04:49 pm (UTC)
DT does admit the relationship of 'doctor and rose ' is a loving story without the shagging in an interview of his although we have to read it between the lines.


Also ,I have re-watch the doomsday and had to admit the line 'you are not ...'(about the baby ) is a little strange consider if they are not doing it ...
Arabian: Veronica_Anime-Stylearabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:57 pm (UTC)
Right, but I disagree with Tennant. The shagging was definitely going on.

I have re-watch the doomsday and had to admit the line 'you are not ...'(about the baby ) is a little strange consider if they are not doing it ...

Right, that's my point. The fact that SO many people watching it thought "they can't possibly be implying what I think they're implying because ..." alongside Rusty's evil ways totally is the clincher.

They were doing it. Totally.
Spiletta42spiletta42 on August 23rd, 2008 05:20 pm (UTC)
I think this issue was deliberately left open to interpretation, mostly because this fandom leans towards the psychotic. Family shows always leave doubt as to the intimate involvement of love interests, often to the point of providing married couples with twin beds.
Arabianarabian on August 23rd, 2008 05:58 pm (UTC)
Yup, agreed completely. And I choose to interpret it thus because it's pretty obvious what side of the bed Rusty is on, so therefore it's pretty easy to go: Yup, they were doing it. He just had to be crafty about how he presented the evidence.
Velvet Rain Dropsadriana_is on August 23rd, 2008 05:27 pm (UTC)
Um yeah. I totally agree with you on this one. (I've told you before how much I enjoy your insights, yes?)

You tell someone that you "were together" with someone else, yep, they so totally were. And, I totally agree that it happened after those two episodes, although I've read elsewhere that it could have been between TCI and Tooth and Claw because she was changing in the Console Roome while he was there shortly before they go out and run into the Scottish Guard. So, imo, regardless of the timing, they were indeed shagging like bunnies. And, I am sort of sorry that it didn't happen sooner with Nine because, damn, Nine is way sexier. And after reading your meta last week re: Dalek...come on! The feelings were totally there.

So, to recap: Yes, they so totally were.
Arabian: Rose and Donnaarabian on August 23rd, 2008 06:06 pm (UTC)
Um yeah. I totally agree with you on this one. (I've told you before how much I enjoy your insights, yes?)

Yay for agreeing; and yes, you have. (Look out: "The Long Game" rewatch-review is coming up in a few hours.)

I've read elsewhere that it could have been between TCI and Tooth and Claw because she was changing in the Console Roome while he was there shortly before they go out and run into the Scottish Guard.

I'd believe that but for a few things: The Doctor inviting Mickey (and Sarah-Jane) along in "School Reunion," and then especially Moffat's ^^*&%@(# "The Girl in the Fireplace." Damn you, Moffat. No way were they shagging if the Doctor could do what he did in TGitF and no way Rose would still be in a hand-holding phase (grr, Moffat) with Mickey were she going at it with the Doctor.

The changing in the console room could be explained by the fact that RTD wrote "New Earth" and "Tooth and Claw" and maybe intended to start that thought pattern then knowing what was coming up, but the following two episodes pretty much shot that idea to hell. Then, since it was so early in the season, RTD just figured he'd lay the groundwork later on.

I am sort of sorry that it didn't happen sooner with Nine because, damn, Nine is way sexier.

I'm not sort of sorry at all. I'm totally sorry. I'm still hoping against hope that somehow CE will guest-star on The Secret Diary of a Call Girl" as one of Bell's johns so us Nine/Rose shippers can have something hot to play around with in vids and stuff. LOL!

So, to recap: Yes, they so totally were.

Yup.
(no subject) - adriana_is on August 23rd, 2008 06:18 pm (UTC) (Expand)
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Rambles of a DT-aholic....: Davidblillieglasgowlean11byxrachiebabyxmorgaine_nicely on August 23rd, 2008 05:28 pm (UTC)
yeah i agree with you, and is probably why he just walked back to the tardis without saying goodbye on that beach again....it was too hard, even though he knew she'd be with a part of him, it wasn't him him...which is still sorta sucky :(
even though we sorta got what we wanted...i still would rather have rose back in her own universe...
i love what you wrote and i've always thought those same things, ESPECIALLY after satan pit and then during fear her, you can just TELL.
GOD i will miss them :(
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Christmas Invasionarabian on August 23rd, 2008 06:07 pm (UTC)
Ah, see I don't have a problem with JE's ending because it really was the only way that the Doctor and Rose could be together unless he was on his last regeneration.
(no subject) - morgaine_nicely on August 23rd, 2008 06:52 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:04 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Jenniferenglshangel on August 23rd, 2008 05:30 pm (UTC)
I just finished a 10.2/Rose fic which has Rose and the original Doctor having sex just the one time after IP/TSP. I debated whether or not to leave that part in because I couldn't decide whether it made what he did in JE worse or better. If they were sleeping together then it makes it harder to suggest that he gave her up in JE because he’d decided he couldn't give her what she wanted. If you see what I mean.

I ended up keeping it in because I thought it was a good explanation for Rose's wistfulness in TL (like she's nursing something in her past that she can't quite share with Donna) And from the Doctor's POV: I just decided that he'd concluded that he couldn't start a sexual relationship with her given the pain he'd been through after their first separation. Like he knew he couldn't go through it again.
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 23rd, 2008 06:08 pm (UTC)
I think it was continuous shagging after TIP/TSP, but as long as there was at least the one time ... LOL!

If they were sleeping together then it makes it harder to suggest that he gave her up in JE because he’d decided he couldn't give her what she wanted. If you see what I mean.

No, not really, but again, I'm one of those who totally buys TenII as the Doctor and believes that the Doctor sees TenII as the Doctor too and therefore knows that she's still shagging the same dude ... in a weird, Time-Lordy-way.
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Michelle: Doctor and Rose Kissgaladriella1 on August 23rd, 2008 06:27 pm (UTC)
My great ephiney moment for Rose/Doctor relationship came in TRB - at the time, it was the only good thing about the episode - 'Her name was Rose' sums up the relationship they had and the 'we were together' line in S&J was even better.... actually, series three really hit the relationship home for me.

The change in the relationship sort of started in TIL, but I do agree that if any hanky panky happened it was after TIP/TSP.

And the thing is, the relationship progressed after the split as well, and the moment Rose finds out that he has wanted her back is stunning, and I was also so impressed that the moment was delivered by Martha Jones - He found you - I mean, awwww.

But the split in JE, it's hard but in a way it works. The Time Lord thinks he needs to suffer and be alone and doesn't want the human him to have that.... I'm confused, my head hurts.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:08 pm (UTC)
My great ephiney moment for Rose/Doctor relationship came in TRB - at the time, it was the only good thing about the episode - 'Her name was Rose' sums up the relationship they had and the 'we were together' line in S&J was even better.... actually, series three really hit the relationship home for me.

Oh, I loved "The Runaway Bride" all around, I can't fathom not loving it. Sniff, sniff. Ahem, to the point ... yeah, S3 just basically laid it out that they had a RELATIONSHIP, hint, hint, nudge, nudge, without actually saying it.

The change in the relationship sort of started in TIL, but I do agree that if any hanky panky happened it was after TIP/TSP.

Yup, yup, yup. Coming so close to losing her AGAIN in TIL just started it in motion in a way it happened before because he hadn't come close to losing her like that since "Bad Wolf," and man, he was still Nine then.

And the thing is, the relationship progressed after the split as well, and the moment Rose finds out that he has wanted her back is stunning, and I was also so impressed that the moment was delivered by Martha Jones - He found you - I mean, awwww.

I KNOW!!!!!!!!!

But the split in JE, it's hard but in a way it works. The Time Lord thinks he needs to suffer and be alone and doesn't want the human him to have that....

Yup, the Doctor and his guilt-complex.
fid_gin: Doctor-Phonefid_gin on August 23rd, 2008 06:29 pm (UTC)
I found your question so intriguing that I had to explore it on my own journal.

My thoughts
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:09 pm (UTC)
Off to check it out. :D
sundance201sundance201 on August 23rd, 2008 06:53 pm (UTC)
Yay on you! Definitely sums up all the points that I think really do confirm that the Doctor and Rose had a more "friendly" relationship than we saw on screen. :P The whole Doomsday conversation, I completely agree with your take. When I first saw that part, I literally went "HUH?!?!?!" rewound it and had to watch a few more times. It completely looked like the Doctor actually thought it was a possibility that Rose was pregnant and that it was his. *Sighs*

And the whole, Rose's top in the console room....that's where my mind went too. I saw that part and remarked to my friend, "Well, duh, her top's there because they were shagging like bunnies in the console room." Just a natural thought progression.

:P Just something amusing that some others have noticed, but in that first scene in "Tooth and Claw", it appears as though Rose changes clothes right there in the console room. The Doctor's standing on the other side of the console all "I am totally not staring at you changing" and Rose throws aside a bag and asks if her outfit will do. While they might not be shagging yet (because I agree with the whole TIP/SP theory), it definitely shows just how comfortable they were with each other, and how the bed was just a hop, skip, and jump away. :P
Arabian: Rose_smilearabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:16 pm (UTC)
Yay on you! Definitely sums up all the points that I think really do confirm that the Doctor and Rose had a more "friendly" relationship than we saw on screen. :P

Just when you lay it out, the progression, the little hints that Rusty threw our way (and looking at the episodes I cited -- I can't believe I didn't mention this, I'll have to go back and do that ... other than "Fear Her" -- which has the smallest hint, ALL of them were written by him), just make it so obvious.

The whole Doomsday conversation, I completely agree with your take. When I first saw that part, I literally went "HUH?!?!?!" rewound it and had to watch a few more times. It completely looked like the Doctor actually thought it was a possibility that Rose was pregnant and that it was his. *Sighs*

Yes, it DID!

And the whole, Rose's top in the console room....that's where my mind went too. I saw that part and remarked to my friend, "Well, duh, her top's there because they were shagging like bunnies in the console room." Just a natural thought progression.

Exactly. It's like Buffy said: "I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were." Rusty gave us steps, and from there we could draw the conclusion .. that they were shagging like bunnies.

Just something amusing that some others have noticed, but in that first scene in "Tooth and Claw", it appears as though Rose changes clothes right there in the console room. The Doctor's standing on the other side of the console all "I am totally not staring at you changing" and Rose throws aside a bag and asks if her outfit will do. While they might not be shagging yet (because I agree with the whole TIP/SP theory), it definitely shows just how comfortable they were with each other, and how the bed was just a hop, skip, and jump away. :P

Yup, yup and yuppers!
Karen: dw-10/R greeeeat hairkarenor on August 23rd, 2008 07:16 pm (UTC)
I haven't seen this mentioned (but I just sort of glanced through the comments), but there's also the comment from Rose in 'Turn Left' about the "really great hair." I mean there was practically an unspoken "that i loved to run my hands through in the heat of passion" there. That coupled with her non-denial to Donna about them being '...' seems to solidify the 'they were together' argument.

I'm one of those who saw that kiss in JE as a definitely NOT first time thing, so I wouldn't take it as evidence against.

However, as there's nothing in canon to contradict togetherness, there's nothing that's absolutely conclusive. You couldn't win a court case on it, if you know what I mean. It's 100% that they felt that way about each other, but not 100% that there was TabA/SlotB action going on.

Of course it's absolutely done that way on purpose. And not because you can't indicate shagging on a kid's show. Or verymuchtogetherness. You can. But they chose to leave it ambiguous because it's the Doctor, and because RTD loves to fuck with us. And so the non-shippers/theDoctorisasexuals/haters can totally go, 'but we never SAW anything'
blackcat_1 on August 23rd, 2008 07:51 pm (UTC)
OK, to save me writing a long-winded comment, I'll just say that I totally agree with this one!
(no subject) - arabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:32 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(Deleted comment)
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - One Heartarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:34 pm (UTC)
Great arguments here! But then with me you may be preaching to the choir. The yes-that-was-Rose's-tshirt-in-the-console-room choir. I also sometimes sing in the we-were-together choir.

The shirt and the "we were together" are the two most glaring to me, honestly.

Something else to ponder: when Doc flashbacks on Rose in Runaway Bride, it isn't to dancing or such; it's to the feel of her in his arms. Aww.

I *thought* of adding that, but felt it was even too ambiguous for me. See? I tried to be somewhat rational and logical about it all, LOL!

And doesn't Nine's watching the monitor (and reading their lips surely) showing Rose and Mickey break your heart? I think that was one of the moments at which I was totally hooked on the new series.

Sigh, it does. I remember really liking BT, and that was one of the reasons, so I look forward to rewatch-reviewing that one, and BOY! will I have un (sad, weeping fun, but fun none-the-less) dissecting that moment with the Doctor watching them.
Suze, the Evenstarheavenstruezest on August 23rd, 2008 08:44 pm (UTC)
Yes, I completely agree. I'd thought for a while that they would have started sleeping together after The Satan Pit, and then my friend pointed out to me that it might even have happened during The Impossible Planet, after the scene between the two of them when they realise they are trapped - they only have each other left and both are in need of comfort; I imagine that even if the crew didn't assume they were a couple they'd probably have had to put them in the same room anyway since they were losing bits of the base all the time and probably didn't have a lot of free space; and when she kisses him before he goes into the pit, she doesn't hesitate, neither does he act surprised. I know she didn't exactly snog him senseless or anything, but like the chewing gum thing, it's an intimate gesture that implies more than just friendship.

If the "We were together" does not mean what everyone would immediately interpret it as meaning anywhere other than on a family show, then the phrasing was really weird. Martha doesn't need to be told that they were together as in "In the TARDIS at the same time". RTD knows full well what "together" implies, and I don't think he'd have put it in if he wasn't hinting at that at least a little.

The clincher, though, was Rose's reaction to Donna's unfinished question in Turn Left. If they weren't together, she'd surely have just brushed it off with "No, we were just friends".

Plus I believe they were flirting really quite overtly in Fear Her, even without that moment with the gum - which is one of my favourite moments ever despite being pretty disgusting.
Arabian: Rose and Donnaarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:41 pm (UTC)
Yes, I completely agree. I'd thought for a while that they would have started sleeping together after The Satan Pit, and then my friend pointed out to me that it might even have happened during The Impossible Planet, after the scene between the two of them when they realise they are trapped - they only have each other left and both are in need of comfort; I imagine that even if the crew didn't assume they were a couple they'd probably have had to put them in the same room anyway since they were losing bits of the base all the time and probably didn't have a lot of free space; and when she kisses him before he goes into the pit, she doesn't hesitate, neither does he act surprised. I know she didn't exactly snog him senseless or anything, but like the chewing gum thing, it's an intimate gesture that implies more than just friendship.

Hmm, I actually read a fanfic about that. And, I also thought of putting in the bit about her kissing his helmet, but decided not to. Same reason for not including him flashing back to her in his arms in TRB as I stated above: I *thought* of adding that, but felt it was even too ambiguous for me. See? I tried to be somewhat rational and logical about it all, LOL!

If the "We were together" does not mean what everyone would immediately interpret it as meaning anywhere other than on a family show, then the phrasing was really weird.

Exactly. Any other show and the obvious assumption would simply be ... they were shagging.

Martha doesn't need to be told that they were together as in "In the TARDIS at the same time". RTD knows full well what "together" implies, and I don't think he'd have put it in if he wasn't hinting at that at least a little.

YUPPERS!!!

The clincher, though, was Rose's reaction to Donna's unfinished question in Turn Left. If they weren't together, she'd surely have just brushed it off with "No, we were just friends".

YES! I remember being SHOCKED! by that when I watched it the first time and then I rewatched "Doomsday" a few days later and that's when I first really began to question the not-shagging belief of Tennant.

Plus I believe they were flirting really quite overtly in Fear Her, even without that moment with the gum - which is one of my favourite moments ever despite being pretty disgusting.

Yeah, lame episode, I think ... but the Doctor/Rose moments are GOLDEN!
(no subject) - heavenstruezest on August 25th, 2008 08:51 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 27th, 2008 01:23 pm (UTC) (Expand)
kakinou: doctor rose tardis rayékakinou on August 23rd, 2008 09:27 pm (UTC)
I love that years after season 2 I still found people to talk about The Doctor and Rose relationship at the time ^^ It's fantastic!
So thanks to everyone who is just as obsessed as I am :)

In my personal canon, they so were together, I mean how could they not be?!

Plus, The Doctor says it him self in Smith & Jones "We were together", in my opinion that is the proof, I mean you don’t say that unless you are.

And I’ve never noticed that she may have been changing clothes in front of him in Tooth & Claw so thanks for pointing that out! It’s great to keep on discover things after all that time :D
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:43 pm (UTC)
I love that years after season 2 I still found people to talk about The Doctor and Rose relationship at the time ^^ It's fantastic!
So thanks to everyone who is just as obsessed as I am :)


I know! Isn't it wonderful!!! And hey, we did get some primo-Doctor/Rose-stuffies in series 4 also!

In my personal canon, they so were together, I mean how could they not be?! Plus, The Doctor says it him self in Smith & Jones "We were together", in my opinion that is the proof, I mean you don’t say that unless you are.

Yup, when I rewatched that scene I was like smack myself in the head, how did I NOT catch that the first time? That was Rusty all but shouting it as much as he could, along with all the other little clues.

And I’ve never noticed that she may have been changing clothes in front of him in Tooth & Claw so thanks for pointing that out! It’s great to keep on discover things after all that time :D

I know, I hadn't caught that myself at first. It's so much fun finding out new things from other fellow obsessed fans! :D
(no subject) - kakinou on August 24th, 2008 12:21 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 24th, 2008 01:34 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kakinou on August 24th, 2008 10:40 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 27th, 2008 12:59 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kakinou on August 27th, 2008 01:22 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 27th, 2008 01:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - kakinou on August 27th, 2008 01:43 pm (UTC) (Expand)
MV: DW - Ten II/Rose kissmrv3000 on August 23rd, 2008 09:30 pm (UTC)
Sex meta! I love it! :D

Anyway, great points! There really is so much room for interpretation here. And there's nothing in canon that ever says THEY DID NOT HAVE SEX. :D

I flopped so much on this issue back after S2 aired. My personal canon blew in whatever direction the wind was going that day, and I never came to a conclusion (not that it was really necessary.) I think, though, after seeing JE I finally got pushed into the "never had sex" column.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:49 pm (UTC)
Sex meta! I love it! :D

Hah, I literally laughed aloud at this.

Anyway, great points! There really is so much room for interpretation here. And there's nothing in canon that ever says THEY DID NOT HAVE SEX. :D

I know!! That's what is so awesome, nothing contradicts it.

I flopped so much on this issue back after S2 aired. My personal canon blew in whatever direction the wind was going that day, and I never came to a conclusion (not that it was really necessary.) I think, though, after seeing JE I finally got pushed into the "never had sex" column.

Is it because they didn't make out/snog/whatever after they were reunited/the Doctor didn't-regenerate, or the kiss, or the Ten giving Rose what he never could by "giving her" TenII? If any are the case, I have an argument all ready ...

Lack of macking after the reunion: The Dalek shooting him gave them time to recover themselves. Honestly, I think that's why Rusty had the Dalek interrupt before they got to each other, because it wouldn't have made sense (and would have contradicted his hinted at "they're shagging") for them to NOT start making out. Once, he was "recovered," they had had time to compose themselves and since Jack and Donna were there, it's easy to make the leap that they simply worked hard to keep the full nature of their relationship to themselves and continued to do so in the presence of others by habit.

The kiss: (Cheating because I'm just copying what I wrote above) That kiss coming like it did didn't necessarily mean that they hadn't been, well, you know, and thus the surprise and shock of her pulling him to her like that. Simply it implied that the Doctor had never said the words before -- which really wouldn't come as a surprise from Mr. Euphemism-boy ("Does it need saying?" *Oh, Doctor*). After all, they went right into each other's arms, kissing away like they'd had practice -- and it'd been a really long time since Cassandra, and it was, well, Cassandra! so I'm not counting it.

TenII offering her what Ten could not: I don't think it was sex that the Doctor was thinking of, I never have. It was more the possibility of settling down, the white picket fence, and even more so, the ability to grow old together, spend *their* lives together. I highly doubt that the Doctor considers sex the "one adventure he can never have." However, living with someone, loving someone, growing old with someone ... THAT is the adventure that he can never have, and TenII can now.
(no subject) - mrv3000 on August 23rd, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Palimpsesti_palimpsest on August 23rd, 2008 10:22 pm (UTC)
I think the doomsday thing is the dead giveaway. You don't get bunny in the headlights face if you don't think theres at least a fighting chance that the kid is yours. . . and he was a total bunny.

Mind you - I also really like the idea that they didn't get that far. Although I agree - after TSP The Doctor is way more comfortable with the idea of Rose not leaving.

that being said - I shag my husband - but no way am i touching his spit up gum.
Arabian: Doylearabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:50 pm (UTC)
I think the doomsday thing is the dead giveaway. You don't get bunny in the headlights face if you don't think theres at least a fighting chance that the kid is yours. . . and he was a total bunny.

Yuppers. Total, total bunny. And on a serious note, the fact that there was the slightest wistful note there just breaks my heart every time. *Sigh.*

that being said - I shag my husband - but no way am i touching his spit up gum.

LOL!!!
ex_miss_pru on August 23rd, 2008 10:33 pm (UTC)
Agreed - not that there's such a thing as right or wrong. Although DT did say pretty much 'wrong' on that front, but hey. He can be wrong himself. He buggered up the capital of Denmark on the Weakest Link, for starters.
My agreement is also based on the fact that in Fear Her the Doctor looked WELL post-coital.
That may just be me.
But he usually does up more buttons.
I am not complaining.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Impossible Planetarabian on August 23rd, 2008 10:53 pm (UTC)
Agreed - not that there's such a thing as right or wrong. Although DT did say pretty much 'wrong' on that front, but hey. He can be wrong himself. He buggered up the capital of Denmark on the Weakest Link, for starters.

LOL! Still, as fid_gin pointed out in her journal, David IS coming at this from an old school Who point of view, I do think it's harder and less wanted to wrap one's brain around shagging in the TARDIS when you're raised on the asexual old school Who.

My agreement is also based on the fact that in Fear Her the Doctor looked WELL post-coital.
That may just be me.
But he usually does up more buttons.
I am not complaining.


Heh, I'm so looking for that in "Fear Her" when I rewatch-review. Oh yeah.

(Ah, that's why "Fear Her" is your default icon, LOL!)
(no subject) - logicisfailing on August 24th, 2008 05:13 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 24th, 2008 07:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - logicisfailing on August 24th, 2008 01:24 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 24th, 2008 01:35 pm (UTC) (Expand)
faery_fictionfaery_fiction on August 24th, 2008 12:08 am (UTC)
Thanks for this :)
My full views on the matter are here at my journal: http://faery-fiction.livejournal.com/
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 24th, 2008 07:55 am (UTC)
I did read your post, but I really do think we're coming at this from different points of view and I didn't want to go and respond to your journal just to disagree with you.

Well-thought out, and you do back up your point of view and I'm sure there are totally people out there who agree with you.

If you want my take on why I disagree with you, I'll go and respond at your journal, but again, I didn't feel it would be nice to go and respond when I don't agree with that point at all. :)

(Hee, love your icon.)
Rebecca Lane, Professional Nerd: Billie & David- Kissing Yourjchasez on August 24th, 2008 02:34 am (UTC)
o hai I c whut u did thur... and I agree. The baby line totally shocked me, but that was the biggest clue. After I watched Runaway Bride, though, I was further convinced by her top randomly being there in the console room. The funniest part that ties into your starting point of The Satan Pit... if you look closely, that WAS the top she was wearing in Impossible Planet/Satan Pit. SERIOUSLY, DUDE.

I've personally sort of had the theory they might have done something between Age Of Steel and The Idiot's Lantern, because there was a certain closeness in the latter, and he sure did get angry when The Wire stole her face. I dunno, though, cause I'd hate to say she was just jumping on him like that right after her ex-boyfriend, who she clearly cared about and was still friends with at that point, decided to stay behind, and she thought she'd never see him again.

But yes. Your deductions are good ones, dude.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 24th, 2008 07:58 am (UTC)
o hai I c whut u did thur... and I agree.

Nice to know.

The baby line totally shocked me, but that was the biggest clue. After I watched Runaway Bride, though, I was further convinced by her top randomly being there in the console room. The funniest part that ties into your starting point of The Satan Pit... if you look closely, that WAS the top she was wearing in Impossible Planet/Satan Pit. SERIOUSLY, DUDE.

I thought it was the top she was wearing in "New Earth?!?!?!" Was it really "The Satan Pit" top!?! I so have to check that out. Still, yes, SERIOUSLY, DUDE!

I've personally sort of had the theory they might have done something between Age Of Steel and The Idiot's Lantern, because there was a certain closeness in the latter, and he sure did get angry when The Wire stole her face.

I've pondered that too, but for the reason you listed below, and also the fact that I'd expect more from them during TIP/TSP if they started before then. I think those episodes REALLY began the steps towards it though.

I dunno, though, cause I'd hate to say she was just jumping on him like that right after her ex-boyfriend, who she clearly cared about and was still friends with at that point, decided to stay behind, and she thought she'd never see him again.

Right, in addition, if she jumped him then, it could be seen that she was using the Doctor to replace Mickey, and that's just wrong.

But yes. Your deductions are good ones, dude.

Why, thank you.
(no subject) - rjchasez on August 24th, 2008 09:00 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 24th, 2008 09:30 am (UTC) (Expand)
Beka talked like an alien, and it was BRILLIANT: DW: big unnerving grins (10/Rose)starletfallen on August 24th, 2008 08:10 am (UTC)
YES!

There's just something about the way they interact in "Fear Her" that I can't quite put my finger on unless I'm actually watching the episode, but it's very... couple-y. The way they react to one another, the way they banter, the way they touch, all of it's just slightly different in that way that makes any normal person think "couple".

Also? I'm of the belief that the little conversation at the beginning of Army of Ghosts? Was the end of their very first fight (as a couple). They both seemed a bit too serious to be just chillin' with the flying manta rays, but... I know that when you survive your first fight, in a relationship, when it's over, even if you're still sulky/hurt/whatever, there's this thrill, because... you had a fight. But you're still together. That's always what that little conversation reminded me of.

Personally, I think that Rose finally got sick of all the dancing around the subject (Hee, dancing) after she thought she lost him in Satan Pit, and just jumped him. To his great surprise (the Doctor doesn't think about sex on his own. Enjoys it, yes, but it wouldn't cross Ten's mind to have sex unless someone else brought it up) and pleasure (duh).



....done now.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Christmas Invasionarabian on August 24th, 2008 08:46 am (UTC)
YES!

I love emphatic replies. (Cuz I do them all the time, so it's lovely seeing other people do them as well. Yay. Ahem.)

There's just something about the way they interact in "Fear Her" that I can't quite put my finger on unless I'm actually watching the episode, but it's very... couple-y. The way they react to one another, the way they banter, the way they touch, all of it's just slightly different in that way that makes any normal person think "couple".

YES! It's so true, they just come across so completely as COUPLE.

Also? I'm of the belief that the little conversation at the beginning of Army of Ghosts? Was the end of their very first fight (as a couple). They both seemed a bit too serious to be just chillin' with the flying manta rays, but... I know that when you survive your first fight, in a relationship, when it's over, even if you're still sulky/hurt/whatever, there's this thrill, because... you had a fight. But you're still together. That's always what that little conversation reminded me of.

Ooh!! I'll have to look at that conversation with that in mind when I get to that for the rewatch-review. Good call.

Personally, I think that Rose finally got sick of all the dancing around the subject (Hee, dancing) after she thought she lost him in Satan Pit, and just jumped him. To his great surprise (the Doctor doesn't think about sex on his own. Enjoys it, yes, but it wouldn't cross Ten's mind to have sex unless someone else brought it up) and pleasure (duh).

Yup!
Palimpsesti_palimpsest on August 24th, 2008 12:03 pm (UTC)
Maybe the answer is that they weren't shagging - (after all he played the line that way so really he should know)

But there was more than just enthusiastic hand holding going on. Like maybe some enthusiastic snogging or groping or. . . .

Cause Ten never did anything that wasn't enthusiastic.
logicisfailing: yeahlogicisfailing on August 24th, 2008 01:25 pm (UTC)
"Cause Ten never did anything that wasn't enthusiastic."

LOL! True :-D
(no subject) - arabian on August 24th, 2008 01:37 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - i_palimpsest on August 24th, 2008 09:17 pm (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on August 27th, 2008 12:56 pm (UTC) (Expand)
Palimpsesti_palimpsest on August 24th, 2008 12:18 pm (UTC)
It's definitely the new earth top - you can see the pockets on it.

Still it's not like she can't wear the same top twice - and it wasnt' there in doomsday. _ maybe he put it there. I'll leave it up to your imagination why.
Arabian: Doylearabian on August 24th, 2008 01:38 pm (UTC)
Right, I thought it was "New Earth." Which is fine, it's STILL her TOP (!??!!) in the console room. Which was Rusty's subtle way of telling us that it'd been taken off by Rose of the Doctor during a shagging session.

Yuppers.