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16 August 2008 @ 02:27 pm
Sorta, kinda unpopular 'Doctor Who' opinions  
For the most part. Just reading comments here and there over the last couple of months and finding myself thinking but I DO like that or I DON'T like that, and after writing up this quite, quite unpopular opinion re: Donna post, I was inspired to compile a list and am just now putting it up. Now, I know one is extremely unpopular, and one I found out after I wrote the list, edges more towards popular and my goodness, can I ramble? Anyhoo, the list in no particular order ...

- I actually quite like "Love & Monsters." I wouldn't put it in my top ten, and I know it's both Doctor and Rose-lite, but I still enjoy it. I like the story, I like Elton and I think that it's a fabulous little mini Jackie story. Plus, I love the few moments we do get with the Doctor and Rose.

- Here's the biggie: I don't really care about Jack. I do not understand for the life of me why he is SUCH a huge part of fandom, why an entire other show was built around him, etc. He's handsome, but nothing to write home about in my book; he a decent actor, but nothing to write home about. And I don't get the whole great, fabulous, amazing friendship between the Doctor, Rose and Jack. They traveled together for what really amounted to one episode: "Boomtown." And sure, they had travels in between, and were all buddy-buddy and rah!rah!rah! in said "Boomtown," but Mickey fit in pretty nicely with those three and yet I don't see OT4 fics with them. I just don't get it.

On that note, I pretty much despise the OT3 thing with Doctor/Rose/Jack. I just ... ick, it gives me the ickies. Just yuck. The Doctor belongs with Rose. Rose belongs with the Doctor. Jack can have a raging hard-on for either one all he wants, but for me, it's all on him, and Rose is into the Doctor, and the Doctor is into Rose and if Jack were to attempt to insert himself in the mix, they'd be as squicked as I am.

So, yeah, that one was the biggie, the major, 'that is SOOOOOOOOOOO unpopular.' Moving along.

- Due to forms of character assassination ranging from mild to OHMYGOD!GET THE HELL AWAY FROM MY SHOW!!!!, I've found that I only love "Blink" by Moffat. I love some of the moments in "The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances" and do adore the overall concept, but the episodes themselves rub me the wrong way in light of Rose's characterization and some of the Doctor stuff too. I think that "The Girl in the Fireplace" is a gorgeously written, conceived and acted episode ... but one that does not even REMOTELY fit character-arc wise in RTD's Who. The less said about "Silence of the Library/Forest of the Dead" the better, other than that the only thing I liked about it was the alternate Donna-verse, but everything else? Meh to Noooo. "Blink," though? I loved. (Like lots of others, I know.)

- I've said this before and I know I'm not the only one, but I'll still add it: I love Ten, but I do love Nine just that little bit more.

- On that note, I think that Eccleston has more chemistry with Billie Piper than does David Tennant. (And on the chemistry note, I don't see anything but BFF chemistry between Piper and Tennant in real-life ... at all, nothing hinting at some underpinning of longing, etc.)

- Donna is not just my favorite companion (I'm sorry, Rose, I do adore you, but Donna is just ... Donna), Donna is my favorite character EVER on Who -- yes, I love her more than the Doctor (Nine or Ten). In fact, Donna Noble may be one of my top five favorite characters ever in ANY fandom. EVER! I love her so much.

- My favorite kiss is the Nine/Rose kiss from "The Parting of the Ways." None other comes close.

- I may be lynched for this, but {ducks}, I don't like David Tennant's hair in series four. I just don't. It's too short, too spiky, just not as ... yeah, don't like. It's okay in series three, but do not want in series four. I ADORE it in series two. A-D-O-R-E it in series two. I almost like his hair, series two, as much as I like Donna. But series four? Yeah, just no.

-I don't care if they keep popping up after being exterminated once and for all: I don't think I'll ever get tired of the Daleks. E-V-E-R!

- "The Unquiet Dead" is one of my favorite episodes. In fact, I won't be surprised if when I'm done rewatching the whole series again that it's in the top five, if not top three. I really, really love it.

- I apologize in advance to Christopher Eccleston because for the first time in forever I'm actually acknowledging that even he can't overcome something. It's not his fault, but still ... even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor" line from "The Parting of the Ways." I keep hoping it will get better each time I watch it and I'll grin and glory in the romantic cheesiness, but no. It's just always groan-inducing cheese. Sigh. Not even the amazing Christopher Eccleston can save it.

- [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice] I ADORE the brown pin-striped suit, but yeah ... [verysmallvoice]I like the blue suit.[/verysmallvoice]

- I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master. (I know! This one rivals the Jack/OT3 above for unpopularity.)

- Poorly-conceived/written character or not, I think the biggest problem with Martha is that compared to most other regular/recurring actors on this show, Freema Agyeman is just not that good. I like her, I think she's very personable and quite lovely. I simply don't think she's a strong enough actress to make Martha work as RTD likely envisioned her. I just find it difficult to believe that a man who is so amazingly wonderful at creating characters and writing such fabulous character arcs and motivations for them would mess up so with Martha Jones. Therefore, I think the fault in the character lies in Agyeman not able to deliver on RTD's vision. (Why do I feel guilty writing this? It's not like she'll ever read it. Sigh, I DO like her, I just ... well, you know.)

- I really, really loved Yvonne Hartman. I did.

So share your thoughts, your own opinions that might be a tad outside the norm. Will be fun to read. :D (I know some of my other Who icons are much more appropriate, but new Billie icon! Squee!! I had to use it.)
 
 
 
blackcat_1 on August 16th, 2008 07:39 pm (UTC)
TOTALLY agree about the Jack thing.
I like the blue suit too (provided it's not worn with the brown overcoat).
I actually prefered DT's hair this series to any before and I also much prefer John Simm to Derek Jacobi. I liked his manic /unstable portrayal of the Master.
The Nine/Rose kiss is lovely, but I also love the DW Confidential TenToo/Rose kiss.
I love Donna too. Probably as much as Rose, but in a different way. Certainly not more.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 16th, 2008 08:29 pm (UTC)
OMYGOSH! Someone agrees with me about Jack. WOW!

I also love the DW Confidential TenToo/Rose kiss

That's my second favorite kiss, but I still like TPotW kiss a tad better, and after all, that one didn't make it onto the actual episode.
main_hoon_emily on August 16th, 2008 07:42 pm (UTC)
Totally agree about Jack. And...well, pretty much everything else you said, really! I've been completely underwhelmed by Jack since the minute he stepped onscreen. I'm still holding out hope that someone, someday, is going to not be at all impressed or flattered when he hits on them...
Arabian: Dr Whoarabian on August 16th, 2008 08:30 pm (UTC)
WOW!!! Two people. I'm really surprised.

I've been completely underwhelmed by Jack since the minute he stepped onscreen.

That describes it perfectly for me. (Okay, I also was annoyed that I had to deal with him intruding on my Doctor/Rose time, grrrr.)
But you can call me Bowie: dr who the masterisiscaughey on August 16th, 2008 07:55 pm (UTC)
My unpopular opinions. Don't kill me.
I like David Tennant, and think he does an excellent job as the Doctor, but Christopher Eccleston is a far better actor.

I really didn't like a lot of the writing in S2. The only episodes I thought were awesome were "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit". I really dislike the way Rose was often written sounding more like the Doctor's groupie than his partner. I far prefer good Ten/Rose fanfic to most of the actual episodes.

There are some really cute moments between the Doctor and Rose in "The Idiot's Lantern" and "Fear Her", but other than those moments, I can't stand those episodes.

I loved Donna in "The Runaway Bride", long before we ever saw her in S4.

And I second you on A) The OT3 thing just not working, B) The PotW kiss being the best one, C) Freema not being a great actor (she's pretty, but she just doesn't have emotional depth), and most of all D) Billie and Chris having the best chemistry.

To expand on the last point- they were practically electric together, and not always in comfortable ways. The fought and challenged each other, and in doing so, often felt more like equal partners than Ten and Rose ever did. Rose with Ten often reminded me of friends of mine who change for their boyfriends- those girls who act dumber or more helpless than they actually are in order to attract their man. The few times Rose was allowed to go off on her own in S2 almost always ended badly (e.g., she gets her face sucked off & needs saving).

And sometimes fanfic makes this even worse- I cannot stand all the stories in which Rose is some helpless little victim that just needs the Doctor to come in and save her. If you want to write fanfic like that, why not use some of the more helpless classic Who companions?

And those are my unpopular opinions, complete with rant. All this being said, I'm still of course a huge fan. I rant because I love.
Arabian: Dr. Horriblearabian on August 16th, 2008 08:38 pm (UTC)
Re: My unpopular opinions. Don't kill me.
I like David Tennant, and think he does an excellent job as the Doctor, but Christopher Eccleston is a far better actor.

Yes. Although, I do LOVE David Tennant, it's just that Eccleston is SO FRICKIN' AMAZING!

I really didn't like a lot of the writing in S2. The only episodes I thought were awesome were "The Impossible Planet" and "The Satan Pit".

I loved or liked enough episodes to say that I still liked the series overall. I do think that S1 had better eps, though.

dislike the way Rose was often written sounding more like the Doctor's groupie than his partner. I far prefer good Ten/Rose fanfic to most of the actual episodes.

Oh, see I didn't see it that way. I guess for me because the Doctor (mostly) acted the same way about Rose, so if she was a groupie for him, he was a groupie for her.

There are some really cute moments between the Doctor and Rose in "The Idiot's Lantern" and "Fear Her", but other than those moments, I can't stand those episodes.

I don't love either episode, but I don't dislike them greatly. Two things save both for me and the latter kinda needs the other to work: First, the really, really cute D/R moments, and secondly, I love how they're opposite coins of each other. In TIL, Rose is taken out of commission and the Doctor has to come up with how to save her and does so; then in FH, the Doctor is taken out of commission and Rose has to come up with how to save him and does so. I like that a lot.

I loved Donna in "The Runaway Bride", long before we ever saw her in S4.

Oh, gosh me too. I don't know if you ever read my loooooooooooooong intro to Who post, but I talked about my love for Donna starting with TRB. Brief excerpt:

    "The Runaway Bride" was the next episode to watch. So I watched it. And in about, oh, fifteen minutes ... maybe even ten, I fell completely, totally, absolutely, mind-boggled IN LOVE WITH DONNA NOBLE!!!! OH. MY. GOD! Is she like the COOLEST character ever!?!??
I don't understand how anyone didn't ever NOT love Donna.

Billie and Chris having the best chemistry.

To expand on the last point- they were practically electric together, and not always in comfortable ways. The fought and challenged each other, and in doing so, often felt more like equal partners than Ten and Rose ever did. Rose with Ten often reminded me of friends of mine who change for their boyfriends- those girls who act dumber or more helpless than they actually are in order to attract their man. The few times Rose was allowed to go off on her own in S2 almost always ended badly (e.g., she gets her face sucked off & needs saving).


I agree completely with the Nine/Rose part, but not Ten/Rose. I just didn't see them that way at all. Of course, who knows? When I get to rewatching s2, maybe I will, but I don't think so.

Edited at 2008-08-16 08:39 pm (UTC)
But you can call me Bowie: dr who 3isiscaughey on August 17th, 2008 03:43 am (UTC)
Re: My unpopular opinions. Don't kill me.
I agree completely with the Nine/Rose part, but not Ten/Rose. I just didn't see them that way at all. Of course, who knows? When I get to rewatching s2, maybe I will, but I don't think so.

And to be fair, I haven't re-watched S2 in a really long time, and the first time I watched all the episodes all the way through, I was still feeling bitter about the departure of Chris Eccleston. I'm sure that colored my feelings about Ten & Rose, and their interactions. I should probably re-watch them all some time soon.

And YES! I loved Donna right off the bat, and didn't get why so many people disliked her. TRB was a fantastic episode, and my roommates and I were laughing our arses off almost non-stop. It was one of our favorite episodes in the last couple seasons.
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on August 17th, 2008 04:26 am (UTC)
Re: My unpopular opinions. Don't kill me.
Oh, you should rewatch them. I waited two years before I watched S2 so I was over the bitterness. Honestly? Had I tried to watch them any time shortly after S1, I think I'd have been REALLY harsh on Tennant and Rose/Ten.

And YES! I loved Donna right off the bat, and didn't get why so many people disliked her. TRB was a fantastic episode, and my roommates and I were laughing our arses off almost non-stop. It was one of our favorite episodes in the last couple seasons.

I can't imagine anyone not loving Donna in TRB, especially people who love her from S4. I mean, so much of what made Donna so Donna was there in TRB, even if it was more towards the end.

But seriously, how can you not love: "Pockets?!?!"
lavender gooms: dw: one and the samethe_spin on August 16th, 2008 08:32 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I adore "Love and Monsters." I thought it was fun and creative and utterly charming. I really love Jackie as a character, so I liked that outsider's peek at her life that we got. Plus, stories about people drawn together into unlikely friendships always appeal to me.

On Jack: I enjoyed him well enough during the first season and I loved when he showed up for 'Utopia' because that entire episode was gold, but I've never been super excited for him. And Torchwood bores the hell out of me.

On the subject of the Jack/Rose/Doctor OT3, I can take it or leave it. How much I buy a pairing usually has much more to do with how well a fic is written/sets the pairing up than the canonical basis of the relationship itself. Like rallalon has a fantastic post-'Parting of the Ways' Ten/Rose/Jack series, but that's really the only one that's sold me on it so far.


You know this already, but I really don't love Eccleston as the Doctor. It's funny, because I tend to like Nine in fic, and I like Eccleston a lot as an actor in other things, and I like when he's playing the Doctor in angry moments, or sad moments, but he just has these moments of this sort of dopey goofiness that grate on me and I for the life of me cannot figure out why. I wish I liked him more! Season 1 is so good but whenever he says something like "bananas are good!" I am filled with this totally mysterious irritation. Seriously, I don't even know why!!!

I agree that having more Jacobi as Master would have been AWESOME, but... I adore Simm in that part, and I think the way they did the reveal as the Master was sort of perfect. 'Utopia' is one of my favorite episodes because I think the writing/pacing is like SUPERB.

My unpopular opinion: Midnight fucking OWNED every single Moffat episode, all of which I liked a lot. But Midnight KILLED THEM WITH ITS AMAZING. I also think Human Nature/Family of Blood were better than the Moffat episodes.

Another sort-of unpopular opinion: I like it when the Doctor is unhappy. I mean, I like him happy too, but I adore the angst. I'm not at all upset that the brown-suit Doctor is left on his own. I mean, 'Doomsday' is one of my favorite episodes purely for the indescribable heartbreak of those last few scenes. SO GOOD.
Arabian: Dr Who (10)arabian on August 16th, 2008 08:48 pm (UTC)
Oh man, I adore "Love and Monsters." I thought it was fun and creative and utterly charming.

Oh, I love that I'm not the only one who really enjoys that one. Yay!

On Jack: I enjoyed him well enough during the first season and I loved when he showed up for 'Utopia' because that entire episode was gold, but I've never been super excited for him. And Torchwood bores the hell out of me.

See, I'll give you that. I ADORE "Utopia" so, so, so much. If it weren't the first of a three-parter (where the following two were LA-AAAME!), I'd likely have that in my top 3 eps ever. Still haven't watched Torchwood, but it's on my Netflix queue.

You know this already, but I really don't love Eccleston as the Doctor.

I know! It does boggle my mind. We actually agree a LOT in fandom, but yet not when it comes to the Eccleston as Nine. Ah well.

I agree that having more Jacobi as Master would have been AWESOME, but... I adore Simm in that part, and I think the way they did the reveal as the Master was sort of perfect. 'Utopia' is one of my favorite episodes because I think the writing/pacing is like SUPERB.

I can't disagree with this. I too adore "Utopia." I was soooooooo excited for the last two eps of series 3 even with no Rose because "Utopia" kicked SO MUCH ASS, and then it just fell apart. But, yes, Simm was good and maybe that was part of my problem. Jacobi was the Master in "Utopia" which was awesome. Simm was the Master in "The Sound of the Drums/The Last of the Time Lords" and those two eps were meh. He was great, but the surrounding material was just not and so I equate Jacobi/Master with awesomeness over Simm/Master because of the eps they were in mostly.

My unpopular opinion: Midnight fucking OWNED every single Moffat episode, all of which I liked a lot. But Midnight KILLED THEM WITH ITS AMAZING.

I don't think that's unpopular. I don't think I read ONE negative comment (okay, some idiot -- yes, I'm calling them an idiot -- complained about RTD's homophobia by having the only gay character die in the episode ... WTF?!?!?). Anyway, point is, I mainly read nothing but OHMYGOD! kick-ass praise for "Midnight." Yes, I do think that many would still say "Blink" is better -- I don't think so, I think that "Midnight" is one of THE best episodes ever, heck one of the best hours of television ever. So I don't think that's terribly unpopular.

I also think Human Nature/Family of Blood were better than the Moffat episodes.

It's very good, but I hate that it's the Doctor (sorta) falling in love with someone else. And then to make it worse John Smith/Joan had no chemistry and honestly while she had some good qualities, she was slightly arrogant and preachy and I just didn't like her. Plus, honestly? I hated the fact that we got to see her have a "human" life -- kids and all -- with the Doctor and that kind of quick fantasy could never have been envisioned for the Doctor/Rose. I can't help it.

Another sort-of unpopular opinion: I like it when the Doctor is unhappy. I mean, I like him happy too, but I adore the angst. I'm not at all upset that the brown-suit Doctor is left on his own.

I agree. Completely.

I mean, 'Doomsday' is one of my favorite episodes purely for the indescribable heartbreak of those last few scenes. SO GOOD.

Yuppers. I mean, seriously, my default Rose/Ten icon is this one ... from "Doomsday."

Edited at 2008-08-16 08:48 pm (UTC)
Rolling to the Ocean: Noblelittle_aphid on August 16th, 2008 10:06 pm (UTC)
I... actually agree with most of this.

I like Love and Monsters, although that's almost entirely due to Jackie.

Word RE: Jack. I love the idea of his character (woo mainstream popular bisexual FTW) but I just don't really care. I don't mind the Doctor/Rose/Jack threesome, although it's never an OTP, and I'm okay with Nine/Jack (mostly because of the red-light conversation in Utopia) but I hate hate hate Ten/Jack.
There, I said it.

Also, yes, the Parting of the Ways kiss is tops, and my single favourite moment between the Doctor and Rose.

You are right about the hair. I think in season 4 they were putting way too much product in, and it just made it sort of stiff and boring. Best Tennant hair in my opinion is easily Sound of Drums.

Last night I watched Utopia just for Jacobi. I would've loved to see more of him as the Master - Simm was good, but he was just too much, and the literal crazy doesn't seem like a natural progression for the Master. The characterization choice should at least've been explained so I don't have to fanwank theories.

And, uh... no comment on the blue suit. Ok, I will admit that it falls rather nicely, but that's all. ;)

Oh, and obviously I'm with you on the Moffat thing. *lives in fear*

I just read your Donna post, btw, and I can definitely see how her ending works. I think the execution was still a bit iffy (we should've had more evidence of a change from her mother) but I could easily see that as the intent.
I don't quite think she's my favourite New Who character (Rose still gets that honour) but my love for her is intense and never-ending.

Ok, I think that's all. (Clearly you're not the only one who can ramble like a pro.)
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on August 17th, 2008 12:54 am (UTC)
I... actually agree with most of this.

Yay! I don't feel so alone.

I like Love and Monsters, although that's almost entirely due to Jackie.

I LOVE Jackie's story in this one. She just breaks my heart when she's seducing Elton, throwing the wine on him and then Rose calls and she just kinda falls apart. Oh, Jackie.

Word RE: Jack. I love the idea of his character (woo mainstream popular bisexual FTW) but I just don't really care.

Yeah!

You are right about the hair. I think in season 4 they were putting way too much product in, and it just made it sort of stiff and boring.

Way too much product.

Best Tennant hair in my opinion is easily Sound of Drums.

Oh, see for me it's hands-down "School Reunion." I could write odes to his hair in "School Reunion." Seriously. Oodles of odes.

Last night I watched Utopia just for Jacobi. I would've loved to see more of him as the Master - Simm was good, but he was just too much, and the literal crazy doesn't seem like a natural progression for the Master. The characterization choice should at least've been explained so I don't have to fanwank theories.

I don't want to just quote this and say "word," but I'm going to. So: Word.

Oh, and obviously I'm with you on the Moffat thing. *lives in fear*

I know. Don't ruin my show, Moffat!!!!!!!

I just read your Donna post, btw, and I can definitely see how her ending works. I think the execution was still a bit iffy (we should've had more evidence of a change from her mother) but I could easily see that as the intent.

Oh, Lordy the execution bit the big one A LOT in JE. I don't know if it was Tennant, Harper Graeme and RTD being tired after the heavy workload on Tennant's part (especially with the two Doctors), Graeme directing two in a row, and RTD writing his FOURTH! script in a row, but it severely had execution problems from all three, and alas, those three WERE the main components of what would and would not make the whole episode work. I just think that what RTD was trying to do, and what the other actors pulled off is what made the episode still as good as it was.

(Clearly you're not the only one who can ramble like a pro.)

Rambling is fun. :D

Edited at 2008-08-17 01:12 am (UTC)
Honorable Monotreme: Fivey is my dokahnobleplatypus on August 16th, 2008 10:08 pm (UTC)
Total agreement about Donna, first off. ;)

And I think you already know my unpopular opinions, but oh, well...

-I liked Rose well enough when she was on the show, but I despised the way she was always lurking in the background after she'd left. The Doctor's lost companions under much more traumatic circumstances, and he's gotten over it. What's so special about her? Oh, wait, I already know what's so special about her, which brings me to the next...

-The Doctor was in lub with her. -_-;; More of the BBC deciding that sexing things up/adding unnecessary romance is the only way to keep people interested. They did it with Jane Eyre, and it pissed me off there, too. There's something to be said for platonic relationships besides "rest in peace," I think.

-I prefer old school to new school, hands down. That is "Doctor Who." Compared to that, what we've gotten the past few years is "Casanova in Space."
Arabian: Dr Whoarabian on August 17th, 2008 12:56 am (UTC)
Well, I'm a romantic, couple-girl at heart always and so I LOVE the romance. But, in the case of Rose/The Doctor it wasn't even intended to be that way with them (what with Rose being written as an older teen, more like a father/mentor thing like with Ace), but the chemistry between Eccleston and Piper just blew everyone way and I think RTD was just like, dude, I so have to go there.

I never watched old school Who, so I can't compare.
False gods are just as good, y'know.: this little light of mine - TARDIS keyshionthekid on August 17th, 2008 12:16 am (UTC)
Agree with you on L&M: didn't love it, but the Jackie bits were ace, Elton was fantastic and the bits of the Doctor and Rose in it were fun. Didn't much care for the whole face-in-the-tile thing, but I blame Ten's erroneous thinking process for that.

I adore Jack - TW!Jack, not so much - but not OT3 and Donna's definitely my favorite companion. I really don't think of Rose as a companion at this point, more a partner, so, no conflict for me.

I don't tend to have too many differing opinions in DW, but I do have a major one: like you, Nine blows Ten out of the water. I'll take snark, limited hair and a taciturn nature over angstapalooza any day. I believed him when he spoke and I still don't always with Ten, he can seem to lack sincerity. And the whole Davros and Master deals were ridiculous. Nine has one parallel to those in TPotW, but it's very understandable that he'd be reluctant to kill everyone and everything on Earth along with the Daleks, so many innocents and all. (Rose thankfully took that decision from him, a nice turn-around considering how often the Doctor makes decisions for his companions, as well as an equivalent to what 10.5 did.) Ten decides one timelord who's killed millions, possibly a billion and enslaved what was left, is worth keeping around and that Davros - who'd kill tons more with his Dalek fleet - deserves pity. 10.5 was completely right in his decision, which bumps him ahead of Ten in my book. It's a bit strange, but my order of docs in New Who now goes Nine, 10.5 and Ten.

As for Ten's hair, I only really liked it in S2 around TSP; looked like he owned a comb back then (Rose's influence, no doubt) ;)

Arabian: Dr Who (9) - BTarabian on August 17th, 2008 12:59 am (UTC)
Touching on the serious stuff later, but first the shallow ... oh, we sooooo disagree, LOL! I HATED his hair in TIP/SP, that combed down bangs cut was just hideous, in my opinion. Hah, so different strokes for different folks.

Ahem, as for the Nine over Ten stuff, and yeah, TenII over Ten, I can see it. I do totally love Ten, I really do ... but I just love Nine so much more and something about Tennant's Ten makes the writers seem to want to write him as this all-lonely, all-powerful, decision-maker-extraordinaire ... even when he really should just be smacked upside the head.

I love Tennant, I love Ten, I do. But I really want an Eleven come series five. I really, really do.

ETA: Oh, re: L&M ... yeah, the face tile. I kinda, sorta REALLY wish they'd just been able to get her out completely because I just get really icky, horrible mental issues of what she CAN do for him to please him and it's just wrong.

Edited at 2008-08-17 01:03 am (UTC)
alexiscartwheelalexiscartwheel on August 17th, 2008 12:45 am (UTC)
Well, as I've said before, I share your unpopular opinion on Donna in "Journey's End." I think her fate is tragic, but fits so perfectly with the arc of the season. "Turn Left" in particular sets up how amazing she can be without the Doctor.

I am sooo glad to see you, and others in the comments, who are not totally enamored of Doctor/Rose/Jack. I find OT3, Doctor/Jack, and Rose/Jack all incredibly squicky. I do like Jack, but I don't love Jack. I really enjoy Torchwood, but I think I love Gwen and Ianto more.

The first time I saw "Love & Monsters" I thought it was a little silly, and was sad that the Doctor and Rose were hardly there. But I don't understand the hate towards it at all, and I find myself liking it more and more every time I see it. The Jackie bits are especially great, but the characters in general are a bit endearing.

With you on the Daleks! I don't get what all the fuss is about! Granted, I thought "Evolution of the Daleks" was very, very lame, but I'm still not bothered by the Daleks inability to die.

Though the brown suit is clearly superior, the blue suit does have it's good moments. I actually really loved it in "Planet of the Ood,"

Some more odd opinions:
I like all the new series full time companions, though admittedly not equally. At times it feels like Martha fans must hate Rose and vice-versa, which puts me in an awkward spot fandom wise. I liked Donna in TRB, and series 4 made me love her. I'm not really sure whether she or Rose is my all time favorite.

I ship both Doctor/Rose (Nine/Rose, Ten/Rose, and Ten II/Rose) and Doctor/Romana (in pretty much any regeneration for either), and would love to see Romana come back in the future. I get the impression, however, that many Romana and Doctor/Romana fans abhor the new series and/or Rose.

It bugs me in fanfic when the Doctor expresses something about how Rose is so much more perfect or understands him so much better than anyone ever could or will, or that she is the only person that he has ever or will ever love. I think he's completely in love with Rose, and that's not reduced at all by the fact that he has loved other people (romantically or platonically) during the past 900 years.

"Fear Her" has a really awful plot. It's only redeeming factor is the adorable flirtiness of the Doctor and Rose. If not for that... totally boring. (Of course, "42" really is totally boring, but I've never seen much love for that!)

I'm sure I have more... but that's what I can think of now.
Arabian: Rose and Donnaarabian on August 17th, 2008 01:10 am (UTC)
"Turn Left" in particular sets up how amazing she can be without the Doctor.

Literally, I screamed out "YES!" when I read this line. How anyone can't see that that was really the whole point of TL ... to show that all Donna needs is someone TRULY believing in her and she CAN and WILL be THE Donna, I don't know, but I get that a lot of people don't see it. I just don't get it myself.

I am sooo glad to see you, and others in the comments, who are not totally enamored of Doctor/Rose/Jack. I find OT3, Doctor/Jack, and Rose/Jack all incredibly squicky.

So, so, soooooooo squicky. I do not get the overwhelming love and hosannas for it at all. I'm quite thrilled to see the responses as well.

I do like Jack, but I don't love Jack. I really enjoy Torchwood, but I think I love Gwen and Ianto more.

I think I'll feel the same way when I watch TW. (Of course, it probably doesn't help that I'll likely always be annoyed with Barrowman for dissing on Eccleston because he had the temerity to be going through serious drama in his personal life and thus was not more fun for Barrowman to hang out with on set. Pfft!)

With you on the Daleks! I don't get what all the fuss is about! Granted, I thought "Evolution of the Daleks" was very, very lame, but I'm still not bothered by the Daleks inability to die.

Oh, that 2-parter in s3 was BAAAD!, but overall, the Daleks are just awesome. I love them.

I like all the new series full time companions, though admittedly not equally. At times it feels like Martha fans must hate Rose and vice-versa, which puts me in an awkward spot fandom wise.

I never understood that about any fandom. It's weird. I don't hate Martha, I like her; I just don't think that FA is as nearly a strong an actress as BP and CT, and RTD clearly writes for strong actresses.

I liked Donna in TRB, and series 4 made me love her. I'm not really sure whether she or Rose is my all time favorite.

I love Rose, adore her, she's awesome, fabulous, amazing, but yeah, GO DONNA!!!!!!!!!!

I ship both Doctor/Rose (Nine/Rose, Ten/Rose, and Ten II/Rose) and Doctor/Romana (in pretty much any regeneration for either), and would love to see Romana come back in the future. I get the impression, however, that many Romana and Doctor/Romana fans abhor the new series and/or Rose.

Never watched old school, so I just know of Romana, never watched her.

It bugs me in fanfic when the Doctor expresses something about how Rose is so much more perfect or understands him so much better than anyone ever could or will, or that she is the only person that he has ever or will ever love. I think he's completely in love with Rose, and that's not reduced at all by the fact that he has loved other people (romantically or platonically) during the past 900 years.

Right. For me, it's basically what Tennant has said: Rose is the love of his life. HOWEVER, being 900+ years old, he's gonna have other loves. I DO think that Rose is special; she's the love of his life.

"Fear Her" has a really awful plot. It's only redeeming factor is the adorable flirtiness of the Doctor and Rose. If not for that... totally boring.

Yuppers, exactly.

(Of course, "42" really is totally boring, but I've never seen much love for that!)

I actually sorta liked "42" even if it was a TIP/SP rip-off. I thought that Martha and guest star-dude had a nice chemistry and I loved that we got another example of the Doctor showing just how little he valued his own life without Rose and that if he died, eh. Sorry, I'm a sucker for crap like that because I'm an evil, hopeless romantic at heart. He doesn't care if he lives or dies without Rose. Sob, sob.
alexiscartwheelalexiscartwheel on August 17th, 2008 01:36 am (UTC)
How anyone can't see that that was really the whole point of TL ... to show that all Donna needs is someone TRULY believing in her and she CAN and WILL be THE Donna, I don't know, but I get that a lot of people don't see it.

I don't understand it either, especially given the overwhelming positive response to "Turn Left." Maybe part of the problem is that many people did not like TRB Donna, and so they don't really connect the amazing things she went on to do with the person she already was. But again "Turn Left" should prove that who she was was pretty awesome too.

I just don't think that FA is as nearly a strong an actress as BP and CT...

Yeah, I agree that's she's the weaker actress.

Never watched old school, so I just know of Romana, never watched her.

Oh, you should! You might like Romana... she's actually got quite a bit in common with Donna. She's never afraid to tell the Doctor he's wrong, which he initially resents, but they become great friends.

Right. For me, it's basically what Tennant has said: Rose is the love of his life. HOWEVER, being 900+ years old, he's gonna have other loves. I DO think that Rose is special; she's the love of his life.

I think that's a great way to put it. :D

He doesn't care if he lives or dies without Rose. Sob, sob.

OMG emo-Doctor angst! I didn't exactly dislike "42", but I found it unremarkable. I've only seen it once, and I'm sure if I saw it again I'd see things I liked... the problem is I just can't remember much of it. The other things that I really liked or really disliked about series 3 stand out so much more.
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on August 17th, 2008 01:54 pm (UTC)

How anyone can't see that that was really the whole point of TL ... to show that all Donna needs is someone TRULY believing in her and she CAN and WILL be THE Donna, I don't know, but I get that a lot of people don't see it.

I don't understand it either, especially given the overwhelming positive response to "Turn Left."


Right, it's not like it was even a slightly maligned episode. It was right there; Donna has that amazing capacity to BE Donna, whether the Doctor is there or not.

Maybe part of the problem is that many people did not like TRB Donna, and so they don't really connect the amazing things she went on to do with the person she already was. But again "Turn Left" should prove that who she was was pretty awesome too.

Yuppes; and I just can not understand not loving TRB Donna too. I've adored her from almost moment one.

Never watched old school, so I just know of Romana, never watched her.

Oh, you should! You might like Romana... she's actually got quite a bit in common with Donna. She's never afraid to tell the Doctor he's wrong, which he initially resents, but they become great friends.


I'd love to watch it in order, but I'm thinking that's just not possible at this point.

Right. For me, it's basically what Tennant has said: Rose is the love of his life. HOWEVER, being 900+ years old, he's gonna have other loves. I DO think that Rose is special; she's the love of his life.

I think that's a great way to put it. :D


That really is how it's come across, though. She IS the love of his life; it doesn't take away that he loves other people -- again NINE HUNDRED YEARS OLD! -- but, yes, he DOES love Rose the mostest. She's the love of his life. When you've got the cast and crew basically selling that line in their writing, directing and acting overall, it's rather hard to ignore that reality in the show's canon. Sigh, yet people do.

OMG emo-Doctor angst! I didn't exactly dislike "42", but I found it unremarkable. I've only seen it once, and I'm sure if I saw it again I'd see things I liked... the problem is I just can't remember much of it. The other things that I really liked or really disliked about series 3 stand out so much more.

Ah, I just remember really liking Martha and that dude she spent so much time with; I wanted him to join them for an episode or two.
(Deleted comment)
Arabian: Dr Who (10)arabian on August 17th, 2008 02:18 am (UTC)
I love Love & Monsters too. It's really a great epsiode. Elton is pretty cool. And I like that we get to see Jackie a little differently.

It's so great seeing so many others liked L&M too. Yay!

Blink scared me. Not kidding.

It WAS scary.

As much as I love Nine, I'm still a Ten fan.

There had to be one to show up on here and defend Ten, LOL!

- Of course "I think you need a doctor" is the cheesiest line evar. Ever, ever, ever. I just giggle because it's so bad.

It really is and it just sucks so because it's then followed by that amazing kiss. Oh well.

You and I are probably the only two in the world who like Blue suit. I find nothing wrong with him.

Thank you. And, yes, we are probably the only ones who really just don't have any sort of problem with it.
marikenobimarikenobi on August 17th, 2008 05:51 am (UTC)
I agree with you about Jack (I think he's quite funny and love every once in a while reappearances but yeah whatever); Donna is almost as awesome as Barney Stinson is!

I can beat you on unpopular Doctor Who opinions... which is why I rarely spend time on the fandom

1- I thought nine was just ok... never figured out what was the big deal

2- I find Rose a bit annoying and never ever shipped either Doctor with her (actually rarely have ever shipped the Doctor with anyone)
Arabianarabian on August 17th, 2008 01:57 pm (UTC)
I agree with you about Jack (I think he's quite funny and love every once in a while reappearances but yeah whatever); Donna is almost as awesome as Barney Stinson is!

I think Donna is more awesome than Barney. Yes, I do. She's THAT awesome.

I can beat you on unpopular Doctor Who opinions... which is why I rarely spend time on the fandom

Wow! You do have me beat. The first isn't that out there -- sigh, there are some non-Nine fans, sniff, sniff, but not shipping Rose and the Doctor? Well, they are out there; a lot of people don't, it's just that a big part of online fandom does ship them. It's a shipping world nowadays, what can you do?

And, hang out on TWoP, they hate Rose there. Part of why I stopped going there, the Rose, Doctor/Rose ship-bashing was setting my teeth on edge.
marikenobi: doctor time!marikenobi on August 17th, 2008 03:28 pm (UTC)
There really should be a crossover or something with all that awesome... Barney & Donna making them world just more awesome! ;)

And no TWOP for me! I don't hate Rose... I used to be on TWOP a lot, but it's too bitter for me... tv is about enjoyment (and after spending the day with 20 5 year olds that's all I want)
Arabianarabian on August 17th, 2008 04:37 pm (UTC)
Oh man, Barney and Donna occupying the same space? The world might explode from so much awesome.

Yay, another non-TWoPer goer. That place is toxic.
miss_jen_b on August 17th, 2008 08:22 am (UTC)
Ohhh I love you! I agree with so much of what you've written here, so it's great to know I'm not alone :)

I agree with you on the Doctor/Rose/Jack thing. It's just... no. I went through a phase of liking it but then one day I just thought 'what are you doing? it's bad, Jack is their FRIEND'.

The Moffat thing - the library episodes make me cringe just thinking about them. *shudder* The only bit I liked was Donna's story. The rest of it is Not Good. And while I'd probably go as far as to name Girl in the Fireplace one of my favourite episodes, to me the characterisation just doesn't fit in with the story RTD built up. The history geek in me gets mad at parts of the portrayal of Madame de Pompadour (I do like her though, which I imagine is quite an unpopular opinion!), I don't like the way the Doctor gets turned into some sort of man whore (seems to be a theme with Moffat), and I don't like Moffat's treatment of companions. It seems like they keep getting shoved aside for the Doctor's Girlfriend of the Week - at least Donna and Rose do and it makes me mad. *gets off Moffat soapbox*

And I'm with you on the Donna thing. I'm SUCH a Doctor/Rose shipper, but Donna is one of the best characters in anything EVER. I love her. I want her to be my friend.

And oh, Martha. There's so much I could say here but won't. I'm not a major fan of hers, not because she's a bad character and not because I dislike Freema Agyeman (she seems so lovely!) but sometimes she just comes across as a little bland and she never struck a chord with me the way Rose and Donna did. And I don't get 10/Martha (don't get 10/River either, but that's another matter). *shudder*

I'll shut up now. *has rambled on for waaaay too long* Sorry about the length! It's nice to know there are other people who have somewhat unpopular opinions too ;)
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on August 17th, 2008 02:07 pm (UTC)
Ohhh I love you! I agree with so much of what you've written here, so it's great to know I'm not alone :)

That's part of why I like writing these posts, because every once and awhile, I'm able to connect with people who do see things a bit out of fandom norm.

The Moffat thing - the library episodes make me cringe just thinking about them. *shudder* The only bit I liked was Donna's story.

Yes, yes. I LOVED Donna's story.

The rest of it is Not Good.

You might want to read (and will likely agree with) my thoughts on the episode. It was my first write-up for an episode when it first aired (it took me that long to get caught up, LOL!). Here's the link.

And while I'd probably go as far as to name Girl in the Fireplace one of my favourite episodes, to me the characterisation just doesn't fit in with the story RTD built up.

Right. It's a beautiful, beautiful episode. Beautifully written, beautifully acted, beautifully tragic. David Tennant and Sophia Myles turn in great performances and have a great chemistry (I actually think they have better chemistry than do Tennant and Piper, but I'm one of those who really, really likes the Tennant/Piper chemistry, but isn't gobsmacked by it like I am the Eccleston/Piper chemistry). But it DOES NOT FIT with the story that was building to that point (and after it -- which was ignored AGAIN! by Moffat in that hideous library two-parter. Grrrr.).

The history geek in me gets mad at parts of the portrayal of Madame de Pompadour (I do like her though, which I imagine is quite an unpopular opinion!), I don't like the way the Doctor gets turned into some sort of man whore (seems to be a theme with Moffat), and I don't like Moffat's treatment of companions. It seems like they keep getting shoved aside for the Doctor's Girlfriend of the Week - at least Donna and Rose do and it makes me mad. *gets off Moffat soapbox*

Oh, the only reason it didn't happen to Martha is because RTD gave him a Doctor-lite episode in s3. If only he'd done the same in S2 and S4. Ah well. I've heard that Moffat won't be having a companion, so that should leave him open for girlfriend of the week episodes left and right. Sigh. Still, as butterfly said (I'm pretty sure it was her), at least RTD finished s4 with an explanation for why the Doctor could be asshole-ish like that (and he locked Doctor/Rose away in a parallel universe where Moffat can't mess with them). Sigh, I so want an Eleven, because it would break my heart to see Ten (who I DO associate with Rose, and always will -- as I do Nine) become a man-whore. Of course, Moffat may lose me as a viewer fairly early on. Who knows? Alright, gets off my own Moffat soapbox.

And oh, Martha. There's so much I could say here but won't. I'm not a major fan of hers, not because she's a bad character and not because I dislike Freema Agyeman (she seems so lovely!) but sometimes she just comes across as a little bland and she never struck a chord with me the way Rose and Donna did.

She's just not a strong or charismatic enough actress. It's as simple as that.

I'll shut up now. *has rambled on for waaaay too long* Sorry about the length! It's nice to know there are other people who have somewhat unpopular opinions too ;)

Never apologize about length to me. Seriously. Have you seen some of my posts?!?!? LOL!
eolivet on August 18th, 2008 04:55 pm (UTC)
Unpopular? I agree with you on practically everything. :D I really liked "Love & Monsters" (I actually think it's a very clever riff on fandom, and Marc Warren = love :)

even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor"

Nooooo, I love that line. It's so Nine, because he's that goofy/cheesy playing-at-being-a-man -- it's perfect, IMHO. I grin every time I watch it. :p

I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master.

I'll go even further than you: John Simm ruined DW S3.

Seriously. The whole Master storyline was odd and ill-conceived, and tonally really weird, and fandom was completely distracted by teh hawtness of Master/Doctor OTP!!!1111 to call it out for what it was: RTD's worst finale arc EVAH. Derek Jacobi as the Master would've eliminated about 65% of the problem. 3x12-3x13 (and 3x11, to an extent) had too many big personalities (DT, JS, JB) that plot became secondary/unimportant (to both RTD and the viewers :/ )

I can't lay Martha completely at FA's feet, though, because I'm not sure any actress could've pulled off how RTD wrote Martha. I always feel so duped when I think about it, because the Martha from 3x01 and the Martha from subsequent eps seem like two different people. That the minute Martha started traveling with the Doctor, she became a blithering idiot with a schoolgirl crush. And I just don't...get it. :/

(Yikes. For as much as I don't like a lot of S2 [saw "Fear Her" the other day... :shudders:], S3 was probably the worst season of the show. :x

But: agreed on the PotW kiss. :D
Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on August 19th, 2008 05:04 pm (UTC)
I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
I really liked "Love & Monsters" (I actually think it's a very clever riff on fandom, and Marc Warren = love :)

That's what it was, too. A lovely little nod to fandom, a gentle poke filled with love.

even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor"

Nooooo, I love that line. It's so Nine, because he's that goofy/cheesy playing-at-being-a-man -- it's perfect, IMHO. I grin every time I watch it. :p


Right, I grin. I shouldn't grin; I should swoon. That moment requires swooning, not a cheesy line. Yes, Nine goes for the cheese, but it just did NOT work for me there at all.

I like John Simm, he's a great actor, very charismatic. Still, I way, way preferred Sir Derek Jacobi over him and really wished that Jacobi had just stayed as the Master.

I'll go even further than you: John Simm ruined DW S3.


Oh, I wouldn't go that far; I just think that the concept of TSotD and TLotTL were just bad, bad, bad ... especially wizened, wrinkly Doctor sitting out, all passive and totally lame, only to come back and cradle the dying Master in a case that simply seemed to design to give slashers a screencap to love for all time.

Seriously. The whole Master storyline was odd and ill-conceived, and tonally really weird, and fandom was completely distracted by teh hawtness of Master/Doctor OTP!!!1111 to call it out for what it was: RTD's worst finale arc EVAH.

Yeah! But that's not Simm's fault. It's RTD's.

Derek Jacobi as the Master would've eliminated about 65% of the problem. 3x12-3x13 (and 3x11, to an extent) had too many big personalities (DT, JS, JB) that plot became secondary/unimportant (to both RTD and the viewers :/ )

Oh, I don't agree at all. (Of course I don't think JB has a big personality at all. I don't get anything but meh on this guy. I just don't -- and that was even before I read his completely unprofessional and frankly stupid dissing of CE.) Big personalities can work together and create amazing stuff (DT and CT, for instance), it was the story, the concept, etc. There were some fabulous things in the final two eps, but it just fell apart and didn't hold together. You know how much I adore RTD, but this stinker's on him.

Edited at 2008-08-19 05:04 pm (UTC)
eolivet on August 20th, 2008 06:18 pm (UTC)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
But that's not Simm's fault. It's RTD's.

...Technically, yes. Because RTD conceived the concept of a young(er), charismatic, snarky Master who was the evil foil for Ten. So, I guess it's John Simm's presence that ruined S3 -- which can be attributed both to RTD and the fact that Simm brings the manic a little too well (a fact the DW folks knew perfectly well -- if they saw ANY ep of LoM -- when they cast him). ;p

I do think JB has a big personality, though -- you don't get on Broadway/West End without having a big personality. :) And Jack has a big personality, too -- someone who boasts so vociferously about his sexual conquests would have to, IMHO. ;)
Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on August 20th, 2008 11:38 pm (UTC)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 1 ...
Right, RTD's fault. Yuppers.

I know he gets cast, I know how Jack is written, I know how most of fandom sees him. I just don't get it. He's very, very meh to me. Almost bland. I'm just soooooo minority-girl on that one, I know.
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 19th, 2008 05:08 pm (UTC)
I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
I can't lay Martha completely at FA's feet, though, because I'm not sure any actress could've pulled off how RTD wrote Martha.

And this one I don't at all. I'm sorry, I just can't not believe that a more charismatic, better, less bland actress would have made us root for Martha, if not to get the Doctor -- since the whole "I wubs Rose foreva!" permeated him, but to get someone, something that would show her she was better than pining for this taken alien, but meanwhile, feeling so much for her. The concept of the character wasn't the greatest, but it was solid. She had motivation, meaning, reason behind what she did. We were never confused or complexed by things Martha was doing or saying, we just didn't care or were annoyed by it ... and I do lay that at the actress.

At some point, writers start writing FOR the way the actor plays a role, rather than the original concept.* RTD clearly envisioned a strong, stalwart woman who didn't live by emotions (the opposite of Rose actually), and was thrown for a loop for that before her arc finished with her taking back that strong side of herself, but with the added benefit of knowing how emotions can help make better decisions reliant not just on the brain. Look at the eps that RTD wrote of Martha:

- "Smith & Jones" ... Great Martha
- "Gridlock" ... Martha separated from the Doctor, believing in him, still off her game because of those pesky emotions, but doing what needed to be done
- "Utopia" ... KICK-ASS Martha, empathetic, smart, understanding, with the program
- "The Sound of the Drums/The Last of the Time Lords" ... Frankly, Martha was by far THE best thing in these two episodes, in my opinion. She did things I couldn't see either Rose or Donna doing. Martha has a different kind of steel and it so showed here. I loved her in these eps. (Her and Tom. Wah! I wanted to see Tom in TSE/JE!)

Then her later appearances ...

- "The Stolen Earth/Journey's End" ... Again, a kick-ass Martha, who is in control, smart, loyal, doing the right thing, her heart and her mind working together.

THIS is the Martha that RTD envisioned and these are her best appearances BY FAR (I think) in the series and these are ALL the ones that RTD wrote. The others, I think became based more on FA's take on the character which did not mesh with Rusty's vision. I just look at ALL of his characters and I don't blame him ... especially seeing the awesome in Martha so clearly when HE wrote her.

* Admittedly, some of these were definitely written before they saw some of FA's work, so I'll add that as RTD envisioned her, it was a tricky line to walk, but still ... sappy, wimpy Martha is not how RTD ever wrote her.

I always feel so duped when I think about it, because the Martha from 3x01 and the Martha from subsequent eps seem like two different people. That the minute Martha started traveling with the Doctor, she became a blithering idiot with a schoolgirl crush. And I just don't...get it. :/

Well, I think the above does help explain it. Other writers weren't writing RTD's Martha, they were writing FA's weaker, wimpy take on the character.

(Yikes. For as much as I don't like a lot of S2 [saw "Fear Her" the other day... :shudders:], S3 was probably the worst season of the show. :x

"Fear Her" really is bad -- except for the ADORABLE Doctor/Rose moments -- but yeah, I'll definitely go with S3 being the worst of the new Who. You blame John Simm for it? I blame (sorry) Freema Agyeman. She wasn't a strong enough actress to make Martha work ... and Martha SHOULD have worked.

But: agreed on the PotW kiss. :D

Of course! (I so have to make an icon of that, but it's so hard because of the dang golden light and bright light behind them. Urrggh! I haven't even seen an icon by anyone else of the kiss that works for me. I'll keep working on it though, off and on.)

Edited at 2008-08-19 05:11 pm (UTC)
eolivet on August 20th, 2008 06:32 pm (UTC)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
RTD clearly envisioned a strong, stalwart woman who didn't live by emotions (the opposite of Rose actually)

But...how could Martha not live by her emotions when in 3x02, they show her crushing on the Doctor? Maybe she didn't live by them, but she didn't make much of an effort to hide them.

I could buy it was FA's fault if the scripts seem to have Martha attempting to hide her crush or sublimate it or deny it. But they didn't. They had her waxing on about it in public -- practically to the Doctor himself. And there was no way, even if you had Catherine Tate herself playing Martha, that Martha wasn't going to come across as pathetic and sad -- especially given that we knew how the Doctor felt about Rose.

I just think the crush itself was a mistake to begin with. Could a better actress have given it more layers? Maybe. But the material doomed it to failure, IMHO. I still don't know what point it served, other than to either create sympathy or irritation (or both) towards Martha.

TWP's Jacob recently wrote "Martha fell in love with the god Doctor, not the man." I didn't see that at all. To me, they made no effort to distinguish Martha's feelings for the Doctor from Rose's feelings except whether or not they were reciprocated.

She did things I couldn't see either Rose or Donna doing.

And to me, they were COMPLETELY random and made no sense. Martha had spent the last 12 episodes (after 3x01) pining over the Doctor and being his sidekick, and suddenly now, she's got a brain of her own? I didn't get it. That was sloppy writing, IMHO. Martha came perilously close to Mary Sue territory in those eps. :/

Clearly, we have to agree to disagree on Martha. :) But I do think RTD realized the mistake he'd made with her character, and when he began writing her with no romantic feelings at all is when she became better (in S4). He should've stuck with that instinct in S3.

To me, Martha's failure was ultimately the writers' responsibility (and RTD's, since as the showrunner, he presumably looked over other writers' scripts).
Arabian: Dr Who (Ten)arabian on August 20th, 2008 11:53 pm (UTC)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
RTD clearly envisioned a strong, stalwart woman who didn't live by emotions (the opposite of Rose actually)

But...how could Martha not live by her emotions when in 3x02, they show her crushing on the Doctor? Maybe she didn't live by them, but she didn't make much of an effort to hide them.


No, I wasn't clear. I meant ... BEFORE she met the Doctor. I got the impression that Martha had never really fell for someone before, but she DID fall for him. THAT was her arc, being overwhelmed by her emotions, before learning to use them for strength (as she did in the series finale -- there's no way a Martha who didn't love the Doctor would have been able to deal and do with what he asked of her).

I could buy it was FA's fault if the scripts seem to have Martha attempting to hide her crush or sublimate it or deny it. But they didn't. They had her waxing on about it in public -- practically to the Doctor himself.

Yeah, this continues with what I hadn't made clear. She wasn't used to her emotions on the surface like that, and so didn't know how to deal with them.

And there was no way, even if you had Catherine Tate herself playing Martha, that Martha wasn't going to come across as pathetic and sad -- especially given that we knew how the Doctor felt about Rose.

Ah, but remember, Martha didn't really get it. She only found out in "Utopia" what happened to Rose. She thought they had a bad break-up, Rose broke his heart and left him, and the logical side of Martha couldn't get why the Doctor would not just get over it. It was after "Utopia" that we saw Martha become stronger with the mind and heart working in unison.

I just think the crush itself was a mistake to begin with. Could a better actress have given it more layers? Maybe. But the material doomed it to failure, IMHO. I still don't know what point it served, other than to either create sympathy or irritation (or both) towards Martha.

I don't. At all. I think it was to show (a) the Doctor's love for Rose, (b) a different arc than Rose had and (c) show how a person who is all brains, could kinda become silly and stupid and lose it over an unexpected romantic affliction ... like the Doctor. And we saw Martha comes to term with it, which probably helped the Doctor comes to terms with his own issues, thus the lighter, happier Doctor after Martha.

Edited at 2008-08-20 11:55 pm (UTC)
Arabian: Rose_smilearabian on August 20th, 2008 11:53 pm (UTC)
Re: I've mention I ramble, yes? Sigh, part 2 ...
TWP's Jacob recently wrote "Martha fell in love with the god Doctor, not the man." I didn't see that at all.

I did totally. Martha wasn't in love with the Doctor at all; she was in love with the myth, totally. The man would have annoyed her silly.

To me, they made no effort to distinguish Martha's feelings for the Doctor from Rose's feelings except whether or not they were reciprocated.

Oh, and see I didn't see that at all. Rose didn't let him take himself seriously, Rose was always about the two of them, they were partners, they were two, a team. With Martha, she was wanting to impress the Doctor, wanting the Doctor to love her. She saw this mythical, amazing God-like creature and wanted to be apart of that. Look at how many times the Doctor almost let himself die (and it was a lot), and Martha never got it, never stopped; because the Doctor was above that. Rose never sat around waiting for the Doctor to save her, or talked about her feelings about this great, great man ... she did what had to be done. Martha treated him like he was better than. I could be misremembering, but while I know that both Rose and Donna defended humans to the Doctor and other aliens in front of him quite a bit, I don't think Martha ever did.

Martha had spent the last 12 episodes (after 3x01) pining over the Doctor and being his sidekick, and suddenly now, she's got a brain of her own? I didn't get it. That was sloppy writing, IMHO. Martha came perilously close to Mary Sue territory in those eps. :/

It made perfect sense. I did watch all of S3 in about two weeks, but still it made perfect sense. Once she realized that he was never going to love her, and then left, had her distance, met a real man (Tom) someone who she didn't see in this "aaaahhh!!!" light, she realized that it wasn't love love, it was a silly crush, but she still believed the Doctor was an amazing man and she loved him ... just not like that.

Clearly, we have to agree to disagree on Martha. :) But I do think RTD realized the mistake he'd made with her character, and when he began writing her with no romantic feelings at all is when she became better (in S4).

But it didn't happen just like that. We got a clear bridge in the finale when she gave her speech to him, when she called Tom up ... she got it. We saw it moving towards that after "Utopia" -- the first time she ever really heard him talk about Rose, and found out what happened, what separated them. And in her return, we had discussion about it between her and Donna, in regards to that she no longer did. It wasn't a dropped character arc, it was a finished character arc.

To me, Martha's failure was ultimately the writers' responsibility (and RTD's, since as the showrunner, he presumably looked over other writers' scripts).

Yeah, we disagree because I saw a perfectly legitimate arc play out over the whole season and then continue in her following appearances. I blame the actress.
The wisdom of kenshinno1hk's mindkenshinno1hk on August 23rd, 2008 05:02 pm (UTC)
I think RTD bring Jack so late in Season 1 is to pave the road for Torchwood .As Torchood begins when DW season 1 end .It also contrasting how companion/s would change during their adventure together.Remember Adam ?He had behaved badly during 'the long game' and he was kicked out.But Jack rebuilt torchwood in the Doctor 's honours after Canary Wharf as he admits in 'the sound of drums'
Frances: DW - Doctor/Rosegoldy_dollar on September 22nd, 2008 12:26 am (UTC)
I'd say we're about 50/50. :D

Our biggest difference is probably that I tend to be very Ten/Rose focused. I love the Doctor/Rose relationship overall, and there's something so perfect and magical about the way they fell in love over the course of S1, but it was like Ten and Rose took up camp in my head and haven't ever left. And I love their chemistry, even if I think Chris and Billie had a more obvious UST-y vibe between them. David and Billie made their physical closeness seem so real, which I loved. I could have watched them bounce around hugging for seasons and seasons.

And... I do despise the blue suit and have probably even written some long drawn-out meta about it. Rose is my favourite companion, probably always will be, as much as I love Donna and Martha.

Otherwise:

-I agree about Tennant's S4 hair, overall. I liked it in Planet of the Ood, though! Actually, my fangirl appreciation for DT took a bit of a hit in S4. I don't really know what's up with that. He just seemed so tired and old for most of it. They should probably feed him more down in Cardiff.

-Doctor/Rose/Jack really does nothing for me. Well, not many ships besides D/R do much for me in DW. :D

-I, too, would like Moffat the hell away from my show. I just... don't like his version of the Doctor, is what it comes down to. And that's probably going to be a problem when he's running it.

-I also will never tire of Daleks. I just love them.
Arabian: Dr Who (Rose/10/9)arabian on September 22nd, 2008 12:51 am (UTC)
I'd say we're about 50/50. :D

Not bad on unpopular opinions. I think we'd probably agree more on popular ones. Probably. LOL!

Our biggest difference is probably that I tend to be very Ten/Rose focused.

I know most are in this fandom. And I DO love Ten/Rose like LOTS! I just shipped Rose/Nine first, loved Eccleston first and am currently rewatch-reviewing series one. Honestly, my love for Ten/Rose may increase even more to almost match Nine/Rose when I do the rewatch of their episodes.

I love the Doctor/Rose relationship overall, and there's something so perfect and magical about the way they fell in love over the course of S1, but it was like Ten and Rose took up camp in my head and haven't ever left. And I love their chemistry, even if I think Chris and Billie had a more obvious UST-y vibe between them. David and Billie made their physical closeness seem so real, which I loved.

I can certainly understand this.

I could have watched them bounce around hugging for seasons and seasons.

You and me both. You and me both.

And... I do despise the blue suit and have probably even written some long drawn-out meta about it. Rose is my favourite companion, probably always will be, as much as I love Donna and Martha.

Heh, I've read some of that meta, LOL! You REALLY hate it. I adore Rose so much, and Billie's now my favorite actor from the show, but Donna just owns my soul. I mean, it's not Who, it's everything. She's up there in like the top three of every character ever created in any medium.

-I agree about Tennant's S4 hair, overall. I liked it in Planet of the Ood, though!

Thank you! Someone else doesn't love the S4 hair. (Although, we mightily disagree on PotO, I loved that episode.)

Actually, my fangirl appreciation for DT took a bit of a hit in S4. I don't really know what's up with that. He just seemed so tired and old for most of it. They should probably feed him more down in Cardiff.

He really, really did look tired and older. He did. (Speaking of, it's another reason I don't think he'll re-sign for series five. I know you think it more likely, but I just don't more and more, with interviews, comments, offhand stuff I've read from RTD, Moffat and Tennant himself. Mainly though, I really don't think he likes the Doctor as envisioned by Moffat and I don't think he's all that fond of the fact that Moffat basically pisses all over Rose and the Doctor/Rose relationship when Tennant clearly has no problem with Rose or their relationship. I keep going back to how he played the Doctor in SotL/FotD -- there was not one iota of warmth, attraction, interest, etc. in how he responded to River Song. And you know that Moffat intended that, but David DID NOT play it that way at all. I just don't think his vision of the Doctor -- and he's an old school Doctor Who fan -- jibes with Moffat's at all. So yeah, that along with a bunch of other small reasons, makes me believe (and I desperately hope that I'm right) that he won't re-sign.

I'm still holding out hope for another Who spin-off with Ten II, Rose, alt-universe Donna (and now) Tosh, and the four of them can go around saving the Earth (mostly the UK) on a weekly basis. Ahem.)

-Doctor/Rose/Jack really does nothing for me. Well, not many ships besides D/R do much for me in DW. :D

Heh.

-I, too, would like Moffat the hell away from my show. I just... don't like his version of the Doctor, is what it comes down to. And that's probably going to be a problem when he's running it.

Erm, yeah, see above.

-I also will never tire of Daleks. I just love them.

Ex-term-i-nate! LOVE THEM.
Frances: DW - Rose - Bad Wolf Bay (again)goldy_dollar on September 22nd, 2008 01:07 am (UTC)
Not bad on unpopular opinions. I think we'd probably agree more on popular ones. Probably. LOL!

Probably! Though with this fandom, every opinion is unpopular somewhere.

I know most are in this fandom. And I DO love Ten/Rose like LOTS! I just shipped Rose/Nine first, loved Eccleston first and am currently rewatch-reviewing series one. Honestly, my love for Ten/Rose may increase even more to almost match Nine/Rose when I do the rewatch of their episodes

I can definitely understand liking Nine/Rose more. It's the same relationship, certainly, but there *are* inevitable changes that happen from a change in actors. Thank GOD RTD continued the relationship, though. I think it says something about the force of their bond that they did love each other through a regeneration.

My only thing is, I don't react well to being told Nine loved Rose more than Ten, but you haven't ever even implied that, so. :D

Heh, I've read some of that meta, LOL! You REALLY hate it.

BWAH. I think it's become a bit of an in-joke now, so I'm not even sure when I'm being serious anymore. Though there ARE times when I REALLY hate it. On the other hand, it makes me appreciate the brown so much more. XD

I adore Rose so much, and Billie's now my favorite actor from the show, but Donna just owns my soul. I mean, it's not Who, it's everything. She's up there in like the top three of every character ever created in any medium.

I don't think being enamoured with Donna is an unpopular opinion in this fandom at all. Actually, I think it's remarkable that RTD created three different women who are all strong and flawed in their own ways - with three separate arcs and relationships with the Doctor. How amazing is that? I'm impressed when a TV show manages to do *one* woman justice.

Speaking of, it's another reason I don't think he'll re-sign for series five. I know you think it more likely, but I just don't more and more, with interviews, comments, offhand stuff I've read from RTD, Moffat and Tennant himself. Mainly though, I really don't think he likes the Doctor as envisioned by Moffat and I don't think he's all that fond of the fact that Moffat basically pisses all over Rose and the Doctor/Rose relationship when Tennant clearly has no problem with Rose or their relationship. I keep going back to how he played the Doctor in SotL/FotD -- there was not one iota of warmth, attraction, interest, etc. in how he responded to River Song. And you know that Moffat intended that, but David DID NOT play it that way at all. I just don't think his vision of the Doctor -- and he's an old school Doctor Who fan -- jibes with Moffat's at all. So yeah, that along with a bunch of other small reasons, makes me believe (and I desperately hope that I'm right) that he won't re-sign.

I want to think that, but at the same time I don't want to be disappointed. It's so much easier to resign myself to Tennant staying on than to think he won't and that Moffat will have a blank slate. And I'm pretty certain the BBC is going to fall over themselves to keep him.

I'd desperately like RTD to handle Ten's exit, though. He feels so much like RTD's Doctor. It's almost wrong to think of anyone else doing it.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on September 22nd, 2008 01:21 am (UTC)
I can definitely understand liking Nine/Rose more. It's the same relationship, certainly, but there *are* inevitable changes that happen from a change in actors. Thank GOD RTD continued the relationship, though. I think it says something about the force of their bond that they did love each other through a regeneration.

Yup!! And partly why I'm utterly mind-boggled by people saying that they can't see Rose and Ten II taking off. Hello!?!? Their love remained through a frickin' regeneration. DUH!

My only thing is, I don't react well to being told Nine loved Rose more than Ten, but you haven't ever even implied that, so. :D

I would never even imply that, Nine is the Doctor. Ten is the Doctor. The Doctor loved Rose. End of story. You could say that Nine loved her first, but then Ten loved her last, LOL!

I don't think being enamoured with Donna is an unpopular opinion in this fandom at all.

Yeah, that was the opinion I alluded to in my intro about finding out after the fact that really it's not that unpopular.

Actually, I think it's remarkable that RTD created three different women who are all strong and flawed in their own ways - with three separate arcs and relationships with the Doctor. How amazing is that? I'm impressed when a TV show manages to do *one* woman justice.

I SO agree; I may not love Martha, but I like her a lot and I think that RTD crafted a great character with a great arc. And Rose and Donna? Not enough awesome in the world to describe them, great characters, great arcs, great, charismatic actresses. And all three totally different. Loves.

I want to think that, but at the same time I don't want to be disappointed.

I really, really, REALLY should do that.

It's so much easier to resign myself to Tennant staying on than to think he won't and that Moffat will have a blank slate. And I'm pretty certain the BBC is going to fall over themselves to keep him.

Oh, yeah, they will. I hope he doesn't re-sign.

I'd desperately like RTD to handle Ten's exit, though. He feels so much like RTD's Doctor. It's almost wrong to think of anyone else doing it.

Agreed; and I think of the recent quote from RTD when asked about being interested in doing series five, and he said something about him and David talking together about how they'd have this big, big end in series four and series five would have a completely new slate and that just screamed to me that David had no intention of continuing on as the Doctor if RTD wasn't there. *Hopes* But yeah, I should ride your train instead to try and stave off some of that bitter disappointment.
Roxie H.avoria on January 9th, 2009 12:44 am (UTC)
Here's the biggie: I don't really care about Jack. I do not understand for the life of me why he is SUCH a huge part of fandom, why an entire other show was built around him, etc.

YES. SOMEBODY ELSE. I AM NOT ALONE.

I don't hate him. He's fine. Completely inoffensive, one might say.

I just totally don't get the hype O_O

On that note, I think that Eccleston has more chemistry with Billie Piper than does David Tennant. (And on the chemistry note, I don't see anything but BFF chemistry between Piper and Tennant in real-life ... at all, nothing hinting at some underpinning of longing, etc.)

Also, I agree. I think I write Ten/Rose more because I feel their chemistry was less explicit on-screen. I used to think that BP and CE were secretly an item and were going to get married XD I never once thought that about DT/BP.

Heck, you've pretty much said all the things I secretly harbour. Muhaha. I ♥ you for this!
Arabian: Dr Who - Chris/Rusty/Billiearabian on January 9th, 2009 03:30 am (UTC)
If you read through this thread, surprisingly enough, there are quite a few people who aren't Jack fans, so, go us!

Heh, re: CE/BP ... apparently there were actual rumors (as in tabloid rumors, as opposed to fans RPFing them a in DT/BP) that the two of them had hooked up, based partly on the fact that both were ending respective marriages (or maybe just a long-term relationship in CE's case, I'm not sure, but I know it was Billie and Chris Evans) and were seen after filming at pubs together. Honestly, if anything were to have happened between Billie and any regular male Who co-star, judging on how her husbands look, Eccleston is BY FAR her actual type. LOL!
faith5by5_1013: Doctor Who: Nine/Rose: Kissfaith5by5_1013 on January 9th, 2009 08:35 am (UTC)
I apologize in advance to Christopher Eccleston because for the first time in forever I'm actually acknowledging that even he can't overcome something. It's not his fault, but still ... even he couldn't overcome the cheese of the "You need a doctor" line from "The Parting of the Ways." I keep hoping it will get better each time I watch it and I'll grin and glory in the romantic cheesiness, but no. It's just always groan-inducing cheese. Sigh. Not even the amazing Christopher Eccleston can save it.

I agree with you completely. CE is an amazing actor, but no one could overcome the cheesiness of that line. I mean, when I was watching that episode the first time, I groaned at the cheese even though I was bawling at the time.

The Nine/Rose kiss is my favorite kiss too.

And I don't think that Martha is a bad character, but I think Freema just isn't a good enough actress. I'm sure there are people who could do way more with that role.
Arabian: Gwen Somberarabian on January 9th, 2009 08:48 am (UTC)
Nice to know I'm not the only who thinks so, LOL!
I think Freema just isn't a good enough actress. I'm sure there are people who could do way more with that role.
I know I keep promising butterfly this, but I've GOT to write my Martha post, LOL!

Sigh, you know who would have been PERFECT as Martha, I think? Eve Myles. Uh huh.
faith5by5_1013faith5by5_1013 on January 9th, 2009 08:54 am (UTC)
I don't know... Eve Myles seemed to have a lot of promise when she was in The Unquiet Dead, but she annoys me to no end on Torchwood. Of course, I don't think that's entirely her fault. I think it's more that the character of Gwen annoys me.
Arabian: Torchwoodarabian on January 9th, 2009 09:03 am (UTC)
Ah, see I ADORE Myles/Gwen. That could be why I think she'd have been fabulous, LOL!
faith5by5_1013: Doctor Who: Bad Wolffaith5by5_1013 on January 9th, 2009 09:12 am (UTC)
Yeah, as I said, she was great in The Unquiet Dead. And I've seen a few shows with characters who seem a lot like Gwen to me and I always have issues with those characters, no matter how talented the actor.