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07 July 2008 @ 07:16 pm
Confusion about DW finale ire  
Being completely honest, I'm really confused and surprised by the amount of anger I'm reading over two aspects of the Doctor Who finale.

I honestly don't understand the anger towards Russell T. Davies based on the Doctor/Rose ending and the Donna ending. I just don't. Based on the logistics of what he had to work with -- the Who universe itself, Billie Piper done, Catherine Tate signing on for only one season/series -- I thought he did everything he could. He gave the Doctor/Rose shippers the ONLY possible outcome for a happy ending with Piper leaving the show. Could it have been made more clear that the blue suit Doctor was still the Doctor in that final scene? Yeah, but the overall intent was definitely there. And the final moments where it was revealed completely that the Time Lord Doctor just could not emotionally give himself to Rose no matter how much he loved her (in keeping with the long-term theme of the show), while the Time Lord/Human hybrid Doctor could showed that this was the only way that Rose and Doctor COULD have that kind of happy ending.

Yes, it could have been executed better; yes, we could have had a scene or two showing that blue!suit Doctor was still the Doctor, especially with Rose. And yes, there were things that were off and not presented as well as could be in the final beach scene. But RTD's idea behind it all was pretty amazing that he even went there.

As for Donna, Catherine Tate signed on for only one go. That was it. The only option that Rusty had was killing off Donna, and I know I wouldn't have wanted that at all. This way, Donna still lives. Did she lose the memory of the last two years? Yes. But will she stay the same Donna from The Runaway Bride that she would have been had she not met the Doctor? I don't think so for a second. It was a small scene but telling when the Doctor called Sylvia on how she treats Donna. Sylvia may have been pissed, but she'll remember it. And Wilf may have loved Donna before and believed in her, but now he's seen the absolute proof of what she can accomplish. So with their attitudes different towards her, a confidence and belief in absolutely everything and anything that she can be, she'll become that same brilliant Donna we came to love. And much faster too. Because the memory may be gone, but that self-confidence, the events that shaped her are still there written in her DNA.

Russell T. Davies gave both the Doctor and Rose, and Donna the only possible non-death, happy outcome that he could possibly give them within the confines of the structure of the show and the logistics of the actors not staying beyond this season/series. Because a Rose who didn't die would NEVER have willingly left the Doctor ... unless, she had the Doctor (albeit, with a few changes, incidentally ones that will allow him to be with her fully in every way). And a Donna who didn't die would NEVER have willingly left the Doctor ... unless the memory of all that she had experienced with him had been erased. But again, the experience is still there in her heart and soul, those who love her the most around her will encourage her in a way like never before, and will have a faith and belief in her like never before. She WILL become that brilliant, fantastic woman that we all fell in love with in no time.

THAT is what Russell T. Davies gave us even within the logistics of actors' schedules and the structure of a long-running television show. And that was on top of a pretty damn good finale that kicked all kinds of ass, used a lot of Who history and brought together a lot of what we loved about the show. So even with my few quibbles about the finale, to him I say BRAVO!!
 
 
 
lavender gooms: dw: i could spend it with youthe_spin on July 8th, 2008 12:16 am (UTC)
I was sad about Donna, but I honestly wasn't expecting her story to end happily at all, and this is why: Donna was awesome. The writing for Donna was fantastic and they made her an incredible character, and that IMMEDIATELY told me she was headed for disaster. I think if they hadn't planned such a tragic end for her she wouldn't have ended up nearly as fabulous as she did, because the production team wouldn't have been striving as hard to make everyone love her (case in point: Martha).

And because of that I'm okay with the ending, because it gave us a season of Donna Noble being a totally amazing awesome BFF to the Doctor which I really doubt we'd have gotten otherwise.


I'm less happy about the Doctor/Rose ending, but mostly because I thought it was awkwardly scripted and shot, and I can't believe the fucking Confidential had better kiss footage than the actual episode.

And I was a little irked by the human!Doctor thing, but not for the reason most of the fandom is, I think. My major problem is that by making the Doctor who goes with Rose part-human, they're kind of destroying one of the things I liked best about the ship, which is all the angst about aging and cross-species weirdness, etc. I don't really want a Doctor and a Rose who get married and have kids and grow old and die together.

That's not really my happy ending, though I get why they did it. My happy ending is Rose happily living out her life with an alien Doctor, who then moves on with his life with some measure of contentment after she dies and goes on to have other adventures and other loves. I'm okay with how it played out though; I'm kind of looking forward to angsty bluesuit!Doctor fic, though not to the inevitable rash of babyfic and weddingfic.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on July 8th, 2008 01:23 am (UTC)
I must concur on the kiss. What the hell!??! That DWConfidential kiss was so damn hot!! And Blue-Suit Doctor actually looked into it (as opposed to the one we got). Yeah, my biggest issue was the execution of that scene which I blamed mostly on Tennant in my reaction post.

Ah, don't worry, you can still get that angst because in my canon, Rose is immortal like Jack. See, if having all of that vortex "killed" the Doctor, then it totally killed Rose, but while she had the vortex in her, she was operating under that influence, like Gwyneth in "The Unquiet Dead," she was actually dead. So when the RoseTARDIS gave life, she not only gave it to Jack, she gave it to Rose too. So, Blue Suit Doctor can die, but Rose won't. So that will be years in the future with advancement that allows travel between the universes, and then immortal Rose can go looking for Time Lord Doctor and there can be a whole new barrel of angst because she's lived and loved another Doctor.

See, got it all worked out, LOL!

So need to make some kissy-face icons.

Edited at 2008-07-12 08:50 pm (UTC)
Rashka the Demon (wolf in the cave): Bright Imperious Line - Zuko/Katararashaka on July 8th, 2008 06:50 am (UTC)
I'm less happy about the Doctor/Rose ending, but mostly because I thought it was awkwardly scripted and shot, and I can't believe the fucking Confidential had better kiss footage than the actual episode.

I agree with both those points-- I liked the premise behind the new new new doctor and the idea of a Ten who is the Doctor in every single way except for immortality (and thus, free.) But I didn't like the direction of the scene, or the logic of script, and I felt the whole thing could have been written with significantly fewer wounded looks and feelings of abandonment and guilt. For example, if they'd had a two or three-way conversation instead of Ten just dumping it on them.

I also agree with you about the kiss... okay maybe they didn't need to have them climbing over each other quite THAT much in the actual scene, but something in between would have been nice... more passion than what we saw in the episode, anyway.

My happy ending is Rose happily living out her life with an alien Doctor, who then moves on with his life with some measure of contentment after she dies and goes on to have other adventures and other loves.

Read this! For ages it was my mental canon. Now I'm trying to work out in my head a way for 10.5 to build a spaceship (perhaps only space, not time) and then to basically do the exact same thing as the fic describes.



lavender goomsthe_spin on July 8th, 2008 10:56 am (UTC)
Oh man, A Thousand Languages is like, one of my all time favorite Doctor/Rose fics. It's brilliant.

And I totally wrote my own happy ending series finale AU, as well. Got to make up your own canon as you go along, am I right?
WynterWolf47: Jack with Spotlightwynterwolf47 on July 8th, 2008 12:56 am (UTC)
Heh. Well, that was pretty much going to be the reaction no matter what Rusty did. I don't really think the Doctor Who fandom can operate without scorn and ire. And there is quite a lot of anti-Rose sentiment out there in certain factions of fandom, so not really a surprise there either. Fortunately Rusty tends to do his own thing and completely thumbs his nose at fandom in general. Go Rusty!! ;-D
Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on July 8th, 2008 01:25 am (UTC)
Ah, see I'm new in the fandom, so the anger honestly surprised me. I think he did a heckuva job. I'm wary, quite, quite wary about Season 5 because Moffat's let me down a bit. I mean, I don't even want to eventually buy season 4 at this point because I liked nothing (but Donna's story) in his lame-ass two-parter. Sigh.

Anyhoo, yeah, go RUSTY!
(Deleted comment)
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on July 12th, 2008 08:51 pm (UTC)
You should, it really helps in getting those feelings out.
(Anonymous) on July 13th, 2008 01:28 am (UTC)
I did end up writing one. It felt good.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - One Heartarabian on July 13th, 2008 01:46 am (UTC)
Okay, so where did you post it? I looked at your journal and T&C, no luck. Or did you just write it up for yourself?
Demeterdemeter918 on July 8th, 2008 03:25 am (UTC)
I think rationally, most people would agree with you, but it's hard seeing such endings for our favorite characters!

I had known that there was no way that Donna was going to be traveling with the Doctor post-S4. So yeah, there were two ways to get rid of her. Kill her off or do something horrific that would remove her from the TARDIS. And it worked; Donna won't be traveling the TARDIS for the conceivable future. I'm going to miss her so much, but the important thing is that she's not dead! There's always a chance for a future guest appearance and I take comfort in that.

As for Rose... that I basically agree. I'm still a bit uneasy about the whole thing, but yeah, there was no way Billie Piper would be coming back to the show and Rose can't be replaced so how are Doctor/Rose fans (being that RTD is a fan himself!) going to get their happy ending? This was one of the only ways.

But I suppose it still hurts.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on July 12th, 2008 08:52 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I get the hurt, but it's the anger that is confusing me. Considering the constraints -- which you re-iterated above -- he did a fabulous job, I think.
WeHo M.: DW - OH BLOODY HELL!afrocurl on July 8th, 2008 04:16 am (UTC)
I think my issues with RTD are more about how he wrote both endings. He had to make the 'shippers happy, I know, but the way in which he did it just felt off.

I know that Donna had to leave, but I think it's a disservice to her to erase everything she did, when, Rose was able to take in the entire time vortex with no questions asked.
Arabian: Dr Who (Nine)arabian on July 12th, 2008 08:56 pm (UTC)
I do agree that he could have tweaked the Rose/10.5 stuff ab it more, but overall, I think it's great.

Well, you've seen my post on Donna; I thought that was perfectly done. And what happened to Rose was completely different than what happened to Donna. There were similarities, but a big enough difference that I understand why the repercussions of Donna's turn.

(However, I still fully believe that Rose did have consequences from Bad Wolf and is actually immortal like Jack now -- I think she died when she took on the Vortex and like Gwyneth and the Gelf, Rose was simply a shell for the Vortex. Many years down the line in my personal canon when Who is gone, 10.5 is dead, Rose is able to cross the universes with technology that's non-threatening and tells the Doctor he's a big looby because she's still around. She did promise him forever, after all. Of course, I'm a die-hard shipper, so, there ya go!0
wendymr: Ten Rose kisswendymr on July 16th, 2008 11:10 pm (UTC)
I enjoyed reading your review and subsequent posts, and agree with you on most, though not all, of it. This, though, is one thing I have to disagree with:
However, I still fully believe that Rose did have consequences from Bad Wolf and is actually immortal like Jack now

I might have believed that up until Utopia. But the Doctor ran from Jack because he's 'wrong'. He can feel Jack as a fixed point in time and space. If Rose were also immortal, the Doctor would know - and he wouldn't like it. Yes, he loves Rose, but he also has a very strong sense of what's right (so, for instance, he didn't try to cross universes to get to her, did he?).

I could see Rose being affected by the Vortex to some extent - perhaps better health overall, immunity to some illnesses, perhaps an extended lifespan as a result - but not immortal, because the Doctor woudl have known.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on July 16th, 2008 11:47 pm (UTC)
Thank you (and this means a lot coming from you!! You're one of the first "big" names I read about in this fandom).

Oh man, I totally forgot about that fixed time/space thing. Damn. Oh well.

It's okay, cuz I like your explanation even better ...

I could see Rose being affected by the Vortex to some extent - perhaps better health overall, immunity to some illnesses, perhaps an extended lifespan as a result - but not immortal, because the Doctor woudl have known.

Because if they use canon, the Doctor only has three regenerations left. If Rose can last that long, then they can just die together. Okay, that last bit sounded depressing, but you know what I mean. Alrighty, I'm accepting this as my canon now. Thanks. :)
blackcat_1 on July 8th, 2008 08:15 pm (UTC)
You're absolutely right.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Kissarabian on July 12th, 2008 08:56 pm (UTC)
Thank you. :)
iwillrememberu: until I see you againiwillrememberu on July 16th, 2008 03:24 pm (UTC)
As much as the D/R ending confused the hell out of me (I mean, since when a kiss shared by your OTP can make you hurt? lol), I'm really not mad at RTD because it's obvious he tried. It's obvious that his love for the pairing never faltered.
Arabian: Dr Who (10) - Saidarabian on July 16th, 2008 05:57 pm (UTC)
Yes, that's such a perfect way of putting it. His love for Doctor/Rose remained as true as ours. He just had to work within the confines of the show and casting.

Love your icon. :)
iwillrememberu: until I see you againiwillrememberu on July 17th, 2008 04:09 pm (UTC)
Thanks! nightcomes made it over @ glassballerina.
The muse~less one: Doctor Who- My Masterwiccagirl24 on July 16th, 2008 08:53 pm (UTC)
The Rose thing doesn't bother me at all. *shrug* I'm rather ambivilent about it. I hate what was done to Donna, though.

The only option that Rusty had was killing off Donna

I don't think do. She could have told the Doctor that she was tired, and needed to be back home. She could have said that she missed her family (especially after seeing the parent/child relationships of Rose/Jackie, Sarah/Luke, and Martha/Francine) She could have decided to go work for Torchwood or UNIT. She could have decided that there was plenty on Earth that needed to be done, to fic what the daleks had destroyed, and stayed to do that. She could have found what's-his-face from Forest of the Dead and stayed for him.

I don't blame Ten for having to do the mind wipe, but I hate that it was taken in that direction that that was needed. She grew so much in two years, and to take that away is cruel.
Arabian: Donna Noblearabian on July 16th, 2008 11:06 pm (UTC)
Oh, I just so disagree. I believed Donna as much as I did Rose when she said she would travel with the Doctor forever (or as long as she could). With the Doctor and traveling the universe with him as an option, that would have ALWAYS been her choice. I would not have found any of the choices you mentioned above even remotely believable and would have considered it a lame cop-out, close to character assasination.

On the other hand, I could find her seeing/meeting Lee from FotD being a reason, but I think even that might be stretching it that she would choose that NOW over traveling with the Doctor.

So, for me, mind-wipe or death were the only two true-to-character options.
The muse~less onewiccagirl24 on July 16th, 2008 11:16 pm (UTC)
I can see your point about wanting to travel with the Doctor forever being her first choice. But I also see the choice between Doctor or Death/mindwipe as saying that Donna isn't a 100% whole person on her own. That she needs the Doctor to be complete.

As my grandma would say, a woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle. And while I know the Doctor's not just a man I also know that Donna could stand on her own, and be brilliant at it. And a Donna who has grown over two years, who can look at the suffering around her and say 'I love you, Doctor. Love traveling with you, but they need me here' doesn't seem weak or a cop-out to me.

It also doesn't mean she can't ever travel with him again. Every companion has to leave at some point, and it doesn't have to be death/a parallel world/amnesia that makes them leave.
Arabian: Donna/Rose promoarabian on July 16th, 2008 11:52 pm (UTC)
Oh, I agree completely that she doesn't need the Doctor at all to be DONNA. I've been arguing that she'll become the brilliant, awesome Donna we know and love in other posts with or without the Doctor. She just needs someone to truly believe in her -- like the Doctor did in this timeline, like Rose did in the "Turn Left" timeline, and now she'll have her mother and Wilf fully, completely believing her. Thus, awesome Donna will rise to the fore once again.

My point of view has nothing at all with her "needing" the Doctor (or any man). It's about the simple fact that Donna wants the Doctor and the traveling experience that comes with him. With Rose, she promised the Doctor forever because she LOVED the Doctor; she loved the traveling and experience, but the "forever" was based on LOVING the Doctor. With Donna, she promised forever because she LOVED the traveling and experience; she loved the Doctor, but the "forever" was based on LOVING the traveling and experience.

It also doesn't mean she can't ever travel with him again. Every companion has to leave at some point, and it doesn't have to be death/a parallel world/amnesia that makes them leave.

I agree "at some point." This was not the point that would make any sense at all for Donna to leave, not where her character was ... but Catherine Tate was leaving, so therefore Donna had to. And leaving the Doctor and the wonderful experience of traveling the universe of her own free will made absolutely no sense in light of the character at this point.

Edited at 2008-07-16 11:53 pm (UTC)