?

Log in

No account? Create an account
 
 
19 February 2007 @ 07:30 pm
Logan/Veronica Speculation  
Erm sorta. This deals heavily with upcoming relationship spoilers ...

It's more of speculation on how the Logan/Parker and Veronica/Piz relationships SHOULD play out. See, I fully and firmly believe that this dual pairing can work, but only if the two couples are portrayed as the following.

Logan/Parker -- clearly using each other as a healing process of sorts. Yes, they should care about one another, but it should be the both of them showing them they ARE capable of having a healthy relationship. For Parker, this helps her beyond the rape and for Logan, it shows him that HE is not the problem which would give him the self-esteem to stand up more for himself in a future relationship with Veronica. Ideally, I'd like to see Logan and Parker mutually decide in ep 18 that while they care about each other, this isn't a long-term thing and they're better as friends.

Veronica/Piz - needs to be the opposite. We need to see Veronica clearly using Piz as proof to herself that she can get/is over Logan, but that really she isn't. We need to see that it's not working, that they don't mesh, because Veronica needs to realize that it's not Logan that caused the downfall of their relationship but her. And maybe I'm still being stupidly optimistic, but the fact that we had Logan tell Veronica multiple times, in multiple episodes, by multiple writers her issues that there will be a payoff. But she won't realize this unless she dates someone light and fluffy and normal and realizes that 'wait a minute! this isn't working.' For Piz, he needs to see that Veronica is just so not for him. In other words, Veronica needs to chew him up and spit him out. And realize that she's done it and that she about did the same to Logan, but that he was able to withstand it and is the only one who can keep her on an even keel ... if she'd just let him.

Whereas L/P should end amicably and nicely, V/P should end badly. The problem is that this not only has to be written and directed this way, it needs to be played this way. Which means, Jason needs to tone down the romantic schmoop in scenes with Julie Gonzalo and show that it's affection and caring, but nowhere near love. And Kristen needs to play a Veronica who is aware of Logan and is either clearly rebounding or is desperately over the top in proving to herself that thing with Piz is great. I can see JD doing this right; La Bell ... yeah, thus the use of the word "problem" above. Her, I don't trust to play it how it should be, or even if this IS the route they're going, how it is intended. Do. Not. Trust. Her. Sigh. Sidenote: I miss her consistently dead-on, awesome, subtext-y, layered performances from S1 so much, it's not even funny!

Anyhoo, if we don't have the above scenarios for both relationships, I don't see how it will be believable with LoVe back together at the end of the season -- and yes, I still think that that's the plan. If they do the above like I said or a close variation, I think it will make the reunion actually work.

ETA: Okay just read Jason's new interview and HE doesn't know (and sounds like he doesn't think) that Logan and Veronica will get back together this season, so I'm pretty sure we can discount anything of significance happening in 16-18. He hasn't seen the last two scripts yet, but there IS a Logan/Veronica scene in 18 that he talks about. Ah, who knows?

And yes, this means I do still have actual delusions of hope where this show and this couple are concerned. Scary, huh?
 
 
 
sowell: Logan Looking Downsowell on February 20th, 2007 01:09 am (UTC)
Yay, my current favorite VM topic to bitch about. :)

Yeah, I'm still not sure the Logan/Parker scenario will work, even if it does play out like you say. I strongly believe the main reason Logan stays with Veronica is because he associates happiness with her (despite the awful times), and no one else. There really isn't anyone else left in his life who has brought him any true happiness at all. Once he learns to associate happiness with someone else, I honestly see him tranferring all his devotion to that person. It's the pattern we've seen in the past. To break that pattern, I think the self-esteem has to come first. And since they're not providing any time for that character evolution to occur, I wouldn't buy a casual relationship that has any potential to heal him. I just don't see the potential for casual dating at all with the character as he is.

And I would also prefer that the Veronica/Piz relationship DOESN'T end badly. I think the thing that keeps drawing Veronica back to Logan (as opposed to the association with happiness that keeps Logan coming back to Veronica) is that only he can really make her upset and throw her emotions out of control. I think it would be much more optimistic for the future of the relationship if Piz/Veronica just petered out, nothing big and emotionally affecting.

And I'm not sure I trust either of them to play it the way it needs to be played. KB because she seems to have some sort of mental block when it comes to guys OTHER than Logan, and Logan because we've never see him NOT be intense in a relationship, unless it was purely sex, like with Kendall. I think JD is more likely to play it properly, but he needs to be TOLD that's where the arc is heading, and I don't trust RT to communicate it sufficiently to the actors.

Ugh, sorry. I'm being so completely pessimistic about this, but every option I see ends unhappily for me. :(
Arabian: Never Lonely Alonearabian on February 20th, 2007 01:20 am (UTC)
See, I don't see that Logan relies on Veronica for his happiness. I just think that when things are good she makes him happy. I believe that he genuinely loves her and everything about her. I mean, he's seen her at her absolute worst (unlike EVERYONE ELSE) and he still loves her. So that's why I don't see it the way you do at all there.

As for V/P -- when I mean end badly, I don't mean big dramatic end badly like LoVe, but more like frustration with one another, with Piz realizing she used him and didn't really care and not being happy and Veronica realizing that she fucks up too, Logan is not the sole fuck-up in relationship universe.

Yeah, if Jason is TOLD how to play it, I have no worries -- but the interview he just gave implies that he has NO clue where it's heading, but of course he could be lying. While filming 17 (and no doubt having the script for 18) he acted like he had no clue if Piz/Veronica were going to hook up, so who knows? But yeah, anyway, if he knows, he'll do it right. La Bell? I don't trust her at all.

I know you're pessimistic and that's what's weird about me. I jump back and forth so much. I call my outlook expect the worst, but always hope for the best.
sowell: Logan Looking Downsowell on February 20th, 2007 01:29 am (UTC)
Yeah, because that really IS my perception of the L/V relationship, if they show us that Parker makes Logan happy at all, Logan/Veronica will pretty much be over for me.

And since I can't imagine them NOT show Logan having at least somewhat of a crush on Parker, then I'm anticipating the absolute worst. I'm absolutely dreading these next couple episodes.
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 02:52 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sowell on February 20th, 2007 03:12 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:21 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sowell on February 20th, 2007 03:40 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:58 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sowell on February 20th, 2007 04:08 am (UTC) (Expand)
nessaassen: Logan hotelnessaassen on February 20th, 2007 02:38 am (UTC)
Re. the interview: At least he and Kristen are talking about how straight-up antagonism doesn't work anymore? So maybe they will be on the same page about subtext? Grasps at straws.

It's funny, the way you describe L/P, it sounds like Logan and Heather Button, redux, only with kissing? Like they (and their sad lack of dating self-esteem) are each other's projects. I agree with sowell though; it's hard to fathom Logan approaching a romantic relationship that way, given his history. I can maybe see Logan and Parker mutually agreeing that they aren't ready for serious relationships, but that they each just want someone with whom they can hang out and make out and have a good time. (And then Parker falls in love with Max, and Logan is super-excited for her, in his laid-back way.) I would need this arrangement to absolutely be text though--an actual verbal agreement Logan and Parker come to on my screen, not some fanwank I make up to convince myself that they're not falling in love.

But then, if that were the case, does Logan really need to ask Veronica's permission to quasi/casually date Parker? (That must be the scene he's referencing in the interview, right?) I don't know--I'm all hung up on the permission thing as a sign that Logan might think he could develop serious feelings for Parker, that he actually decides he's moving on. For me, it's Logan's absolute devotion to Veronica that carries the ship, as well as his honesty about it--as much as he hates himself for it at times, he's never failed to acknowledge his feelings for her, at least to himself, even in the worst moments of season 2. If he's out, it's over. (Veronica's only ever half-in anyway, so her relationship shenanigans matters less.) Maybe not on the show--if they somehow finagle a fourth season--but for me.

Because the other possibility that I can anticipate which I really don't want to see is an arc in which Logan lies to himself about moving on, an arc in which he steals a page from Veronica's book and buries his feelings for her. He starts a relationship with Parker, he thinks he's moved on. And then in some stupid cataclysmic disaster (or over the course of working a case with Veronica over several episodes), he realizes he never really got over her, he just thought he did. (Then you know, potentially Parker gets hurt, Veronica may or not feel the same way in return, etc. etc.) That seems like just the kind of contrivance these writers might pull, even though Logan is canonically the character on the show who is most in touch with his feelings, their implications, etc. And I never, ever want to see him *torn* between Parker and Veronica (God, can you imagine the CW promos that week?). That's not what this ship (or Logan) is about for me.

In any case, to get to any kind of L/V resolution, it seems like they've set themselves up to need a fourth season, and the chances of that seem pretty slim. (I know you're holding out hope for 19 and 20, and in my secret heart, I am too. But it feels exactly like the false hope I was holding on to before 3.12, and we know how that turned out.)
sowell: Logan Looking Downsowell on February 20th, 2007 02:54 am (UTC)
I would need this arrangement to absolutely be text though--an actual verbal agreement Logan and Parker come to on my screen, not some fanwank I make up to convince myself that they're not falling in love.
Ditto.

But then, if that were the case, does Logan really need to ask Veronica's permission to quasi/casually date Parker? (That must be the scene he's referencing in the interview, right?) I don't know--I'm all hung up on the permission thing as a sign that Logan might think he could develop serious feelings for Parker, that he actually decides he's moving on.
Ditto. Ditto. Ditto.

For me, it's Logan's absolute devotion to Veronica that carries the ship, as well as his honesty about it
Yup. Left to Veronica, this couple never would have re-kindled. So if Logan moves on, it's pretty much done.

That seems like just the kind of contrivance these writers might pull, even though Logan is canonically the character on the show who is most in touch with his feelings, their implications, etc. And I never, ever want to see him *torn* between Parker and Veronica (God, can you imagine the CW promos that week?). That's not what this ship (or Logan) is about for me.
Man, I am on the exact same page as you. I would never be able to stomach a Parker-Logan-Veronica triangle.

(I know you're holding out hope for 19 and 20, and in my secret heart, I am too. But it feels exactly like the false hope I was holding on to before 3.12, and we know how that turned out.)
And...ditto.
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:06 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sowell on February 20th, 2007 03:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - sowell on February 20th, 2007 03:47 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:53 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nessaassen on February 20th, 2007 04:22 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 02:56 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nessaassen on February 20th, 2007 03:31 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:33 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nessaassen on February 20th, 2007 04:03 am (UTC) (Expand)
hiddenlockethiddenlocket on February 20th, 2007 01:28 am (UTC)
Yeah I defiantely agree with you that this would be the best way for it all to work out, especially with Veronica/Piz. Logan/Parker I still can never possibly picture but I guess if RT is really going to make it happen then a quick ending with friends thing would be best. Eh I still just don't see it in any way though. But on the Piz/Veronica front any type of character growth or realization at all for Veronica would be well appreciated.
Arabian: Veronicaarabian on February 20th, 2007 02:57 am (UTC)
Agreed. There NEEDS to be some realization regarding a failure of some kind of Veronica in regards to the V/P thing. I can't see any other purpose for it. Not even Rob's hankering for it, because there just hasn't been build up to a P/V think in regards to his crush, but also in regards to Veronica's lack of awareness for it and love for Logan.
too much going on omg: L/V benchdiamondrocker on February 20th, 2007 01:43 am (UTC)
I think your spec is a good one, and can see this possibly playing out. It would make the most sense - but when has that ever really been a factor?

There's just one thing that I'm not so sure of, and it's concerning the V/Piz relationship. You spec that while she'll have her nice and normla, happy and fluffy, she'll have to chew him up and spit him out, and I just don't see that happening. I see this as being like Duncan/Veronica Part 2, where Veronica is a completely different entity. I haven't really thought too much about it, so I can't really get specific or detailed, but it's going to be the exact opposite of the L/V relationship. It won't be volatile - it'll be nice and light and happy, and probably none of V's issues will get brought up. Maybe it's the VM pessimist in me, and granted, I haven't read any spoilers or have any clue as to what's happening with the show, but I don't see V realizing through her relationship with Piz that she is still in love with Logan and needs him - I see her brushing their past relationship under the rug like she did in S2.

Lets hope that you're right and that I'm completely wrong.
Arabian: Bench-Kissing (cap by lapses)arabian on February 20th, 2007 02:59 am (UTC)
I guess the reason I don't see it the same as VD is because part of why Veronica accepted it as was is because of their specific history. She doesn't have that with Piz. At all.

If they go the route that you project (and sadly I could see it happening, mostly because I'm afraid no one will kick La Bell's ass in gear and make sure she plays it right), then they've really killed the LoVe ship, because it's ONLY the history of VD that made that even remotely believable in terms of Veronica's character.
WeHo M.afrocurl on February 20th, 2007 02:58 am (UTC)
This would play out really well, and like you, I'll hope for something good.

Given what Jason was saying in that interview, I think he can tone down the long sad eyes at Veronica.

I'll save my thoughts for the JD interview, but I seriously love that man.
Arabian: Fine Ass!arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:00 am (UTC)
I love him too. It was a GREAT interview. I don't the LV stuff toned down, I want the Logan schmoopy with Parker toned down. Because if he plays it the same way he does with Veronica, there's no differentiation and then what's the point? I'm counting on you, Jason, damnit!
WeHo M.: VM - Memoriesafrocurl on February 20th, 2007 03:02 am (UTC)
Well, I think he'd need to play down some of the look at Veronica to make the ones at Parker make sense, even if after a few days/weeks he realizes it doesn't work.
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:09 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - afrocurl on February 20th, 2007 03:17 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:24 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - afrocurl on February 20th, 2007 03:26 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:34 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - afrocurl on February 20th, 2007 03:36 am (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - arabian on February 20th, 2007 03:37 am (UTC) (Expand)
Jbminor_or_a on February 20th, 2007 06:35 am (UTC)
Well I've read your entry along with a lot of the comments, and I agree with you on pretty much everything.

Everyone's main peeve with your theory seem to be that it would be out of character for Logan to have that type of relationship with Parker, but honestly? That's what character development is. Yes, if he was the same person as he was in s1 then he probably would be incapable of having a relationship with Parker that wasn't about him throwing himself into it and convincing himself that it was deep deep love. But at this point, he's been through SO much with Veronica I think he just wants someone who will be company and comfort for him without the drama and pain of the type of relationships he's used to. He's just too tired to keep doing that to himself, and I think if it was to happen again he'd just lose himself.

So I've been hoping for this course of action ever since the V/P and L/P spoilers, and I really do hope that it turns out that way, but like you said, there are more than a few things that stand in the way of it playing out like that, so I'm withholding judgement for now.
Brandy: vm.lv.mars investigationsbrandyleigh on February 20th, 2007 05:28 pm (UTC)
I just wandered over here and I have to say I like your optimism. I was somewhat depressed after reading the Logan/Parker spoilers, mostly because I think that Parker could be a viable alternative to Veronica. While I think that Logan will always be at his happiest with Veronica, I feel like he's emotionally available enough to have a real relationship with someone else, and that maybe there will come a point in time where he decides (or the show makes us believe) that being with Veronica isn't worth it - that despite being really, truly happy when things are good between them, he can't handle the depression and despair that eventually happens when things go sour. I think that's why Parker/Logan upsets me more than Piz/Veronica - I don't want to see Piz and Veronica date, because it will bore me, most likely, but I never saw Piz as a real threat because there's no way Veronica will let him really get to know the real her. I don't care if they do have sex, I don't think he'll know a tenth of what Logan does about Veronica. But Logan/Parker worries me.

But what you're saying makes sense (and makes me hopeful, so yay for that). We've not seen Logan in a relationship where he wasn't either head over heels in love or just having casual sex. But, they've (I think) been trying to show us how he's grown this season, so maybe they're going to show him in a lighter, less dramatic relationship, that's not all about sex or about being in love. I really wish they would just bring back his brother, though, because I don't think Logan really needs to be in a relationship right now. But that's a rant for another day. :) I am irritated about Logan asking Veronica for her "permission" to date Parker. I'm not a big fan of that spoiler at the moment, but maybe something will change my mind. After all, who would've thought that we'd love a conversation about Duncan's sexual partners in 2.20? Maybe Logan asking for her permission will surprise me, in a good way. I hope so.
Arabian: Epicarabian on February 22nd, 2007 01:00 am (UTC)
What I've found interesting is so many are saying that Parker is a viable option (as I have I), but one of the major complaints about V/P is that there would be NO conflict -- nothing there. Well, isn't that the same case with L/P too? No conflict, boring. And judging last night's ep, not much chemistry either.

I really wish they would just bring back his brother, though, because I don't think Logan really needs to be in a relationship right now.

God, I agree so much ... it is NOT even funny. Grr, Rob.

I am irritated about Logan asking Veronica for her "permission" to date Parker. I'm not a big fan of that spoiler at the moment, but maybe something will change my mind.

Unless they change what I know, fear not. It will be fine.